Dear Tormek Forum Community,
Once again we have great news, this time for all you knife sharpening enthusiasts out there!
Tomorrow we will be making two new products official. Namely two new, self-centering, patented knife jigs! Product pages will be published tomorrow Friday March 18. New live episodes in English, French, German and Swedish are to be expected quite soon as well.
We hope you are as excited about this as we are. Stay tuned – and stay sharp!
/Hugo and the Tormek Team
Wow! This was a long anticipated surprise. I feel like we have been on a long sea voyage and have finally sighted land.
Thank you, Hugo, for posting this.
Ken
Wow, exciting news!
I did a patent search... not sure if this is it, (but an interesting read)....
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/23/de/39/44aded944fadd8/US20200316748A1.pdf
(https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4950.0;attach=6339)
A part that I found interesting...
QuoteThe front end and rear end abutment surfaces allows the grinding jig to be moved in a controlled manner back and forth relative the support bar during grinding of the blade. Practical trials have shown that this controlled movement, limited between the front and rear abutment parts, results in that a convex bevel is achieved on the edges of the blade tool during grinding . Such convex edges are proven to be very strong.
... in addition to centering of course. ;)
Quote from: Hugo Öhman on March 17, 2022, 10:07:12 AM
Dear Tormek Forum Community,
Once again we have great news, this time for all you knife sharpening enthusiasts out there!
Tomorrow we will be making two new products official. Namely two new, self-centering, patented knife jigs! Product pages will be published tomorrow Friday March 18. New live episodes in English, French, German and Swedish are to be expected quite soon as well.
We hope you are as excited about this as we are. Stay tuned – and stay sharp!
/Hugo and the Tormek Team
At last - waiting for so long - I'm really thrilled and great praise to the swedish constructors ;D
Exciting news! Looking forward to them!
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 17, 2022, 01:40:24 PM
A part that I found interesting...
QuoteThe front end and rear end abutment surfaces allows the grinding jig to be moved in a controlled manner back and forth relative the support bar during grinding of the blade. Practical trials have shown that this controlled movement, limited between the front and rear abutment parts, results in that a convex bevel is achieved on the edges of the blade tool during grinding . Such convex edges are proven to be very strong.
... in addition to centering of course. ;)
I've thought of this in the past (not trying to claim credit, I never posted about it). Add a second collar to make a top and bottom limit, the only thing I couldn't figure was the practical process. with KME's convex bar, you run the stone perpendicular to the edge and move it along the edge stone-width by stone-width. I had imagined it being similar here. Curved blades concerned me, getting the grinding all the way through.
Here is a link to the just posted description on the Tormek website:
https://www.tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/kj-45-centering-knife-jig/
https://www.tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/kj-140-wide-centering-knife-jig/
The new knife jigs do a lot more than self centering. They also make it easier to grind convex edges, thus making it possible to grind the standard concave edges, flat grind (with diamond wheels using the side), and convex edges using the same jig. The jig is designed to enable sharpening wide knives such as cleavers without the need for the US-430, although the US-430 is still needed for longer knives.
Remarkable.
Ken
Video link fast
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXa04SpMgGs
Quote from: Ken S on March 18, 2022, 08:58:24 AM
Here is a link to the just posted description on the Tormek website:
https://www.tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/kj-45-centering-knife-jig/
https://www.tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/kj-140-wide-centering-knife-jig/
The new knife jigs do a lot more than self centering. They also make it easier to grind convex edges, thus making it possible to grind the standard concave edges, flat grind (with diamond wheels using the side), and convex edges using the same jig. The jig is designed to enable sharpening wide knives such as cleavers without the need for the US-430, although the US-430 is still needed for longer knives.
Remarkable.
Ken
I'm not convinced about the convex ability, but what I see (maybe) is a built in "pin pivot" collar. ;)
Edit: This is another feature worth mentioning...
QuoteCenters tapered knives and holds them firmly.
Appears to impose a fixed projection distance, for the upper collar. Probably not a big deal, I always use 139mm, easy enough to change. Just wondering what it is, as nothing is mentioned about it in the Tormek blurbs (that I've found).
Rick
The very short video left me with more questions than answers. I hope an online class type video will be forthcoming. I believe these two new jigs will satisfy our hopes for better jigs.
Ken
tormek.com now has the instructions for the two new knife jigs in four languages. Here is a link:
https://www.tormek.com/media/3946659/instruction-kj-45-and-kj-140_en-sv-de-fr.pdf
Instead of fine adjustment with the adjustable stop, it seems that there are now two fixed stops on the shaft and that fine adjustment is only done with the microadjust on the support bar.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 18, 2022, 11:29:46 PM
tormek.com now has the instructions for the two new knife jigs in four languages. Here is a link:
https://www.tormek.com/media/3946659/instruction-kj-45-and-kj-140_en-sv-de-fr.pdf
Instead of fine adjustment with the adjustable stop, it seems that there are now two fixed stops on the shaft and that fine adjustment is only done with the microadjust on the support bar.
Ken
Interesting. It was obvious that there projection distance is fixed for both of the stops. Given that I only used 139mm as that projection distance, except for the very unusually wide blade, I have always only used the Micro-Adjust for fine adjustment of the angle, so not much difference other than switching to the new fixed projection, whatever that may be. The manual does not state what the projection distances are for the two fixed stop positions.
It would seem like as the knife spine gets thicker, the two halves of the shaft will be spread further apart. Or maybe it is the sharply angled primary beveled blades where the jaws much incline to grip the blade uniformly where the shaft halves will be spread apart the most, more so out toward the further stop. I wonder what that does to angle setting with the software apps as the shaft "diameter" will be 12mm for only a few blade thicknesses.
Rick
Quote from: RickKrung on March 19, 2022, 12:51:16 AM
Interesting. It was obvious that there projection distance is fixed for both of the stops. Given that I only used 139mm as that projection distance, except for the very unusually wide blade, I have always only used the Micro-Adjust for fine adjustment of the angle, so not much difference other than switching to the new fixed projection, whatever that may be. The manual does not state what the projection distances are for the two fixed stop positions.
It would seem like as the knife spine gets thicker, the two halves of the shaft will be spread further apart. Or maybe it is the sharply angled primary beveled blades where the jaws much incline to grip the blade uniformly where the shaft halves will be spread apart the most, more so out toward the further stop. I wonder what that does to angle setting with the software apps as the shaft "diameter" will be 12mm for only a few blade thicknesses.
Rick
I doubt Tormek is going to provide "Projection Distance" info, since it's not something they use.
I already messed with the numbers a bit... it takes around 6mm of change to equal 1 degree. If it ends up mattering, I'll probably modify Calcapp to allow the user to input the diameter/thickness. Some, (like TormekCalc2), already allow this. Like you've described, it'll probably depend on what actually happens when a thicker blade is clamped.
Good points, Rick and CB.
We will all know more when we actually have the new jigs in hand and can measure them.
For a long time, I believed that I had come upon the 139mm Projection independently. I spent a long time during the early development of the kenjig measuring Projections. 139mm is in the middle range of the SVM jig adjustment threads. At the time, I did not realize that Dutchman (Ton Nillisen) had included these Projection measurements in the 2013 grinding angle booklets he had posted on the forum. Ton's work is the basis for my kenjig, as well as the other computer knife set up computer apps which have followed.
I look forward to adapting the kenjig concept to the new jigs. Two fixed jig Projection points will be different than the present adjustable shaft. It may actually prove to be simpler to use. I designed the kenjig to work with three preset jigs for fifferent widths of knives. This systen can be very fast, usually requiring no jig or support bar adjustments with different knives.
I am curious to see how the fixed Projection jigs will work. They may actually be faster to use. I am certain the clever minds of the members who designed and built things like the pivot points for the SVM jigs will be just as clever with the new KJ jigs.
Ken.
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2022, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not convinced about the convex ability, but what I see (maybe) is a built in "pin pivot" collar. ;)
IMHO, the space is too narrow for "pin pivot". So I think we have to use both SVM and KJ.
Quote from: Sharpco on March 19, 2022, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2022, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not convinced about the convex ability, but what I see (maybe) is a built in "pin pivot" collar. ;)
IMHO, the space is too narrow for "pin pivot". So I think we have to use both SVM and KJ.
Yeah... probably wishful thinking. ;)
They worked hard to "design out" pivoting. :D ;D
Gentlemen,
I suggest we table this debate until we all have a chance to actually use the new jigs. Also, I would be surprised of Tormek did not have an online class on them within a month or so.
Ken
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 19, 2022, 02:40:17 PM
Yeah... probably wishful thinking. ;)
They worked hard to "design out" pivoting. :D ;D
I agree. But if the extra stop's position was a little higher, a freer pivot would have been possible.
If self centering means that you will be able to grind an equal bevel on both sides of a blade, wow! That is my only complaint against the Tormek was the uneven grind. All I use one for is knives and then I pretty much stopped that and chisels.
Jeff,
From my limited information, I believe you will be pleased with the new knife jigs. Tormek usually spends at least of in house testing before releasing new products. I gather that these knife jigs have received more extensive than usual testing. Tormek has absorbed a lot of grumbling because the present SVM jigs are not self centering. I expect quality
jigs and that Tormek will produce a thorough online class style video sometime in early spring.
Ken
I've tried to estimate what the impact of this dual-stop configuration would be on the actual apex angle. Eyeballing the gap in the video, i'd say there's a 12 to 15mm gap between the outside edge of the usb when in the "standard" position, and the top of the bottom stop.
If this is true, and if I got my math right, that would mean a 7 to 10 dps difference in apex angle compared to the shoulder angle. It's a huge difference, don't you think ?
If I'm correct in saying that the apex angle matters more than the shoulder angle, then it means we'll have to set our angles for the position where the usb is against the lower stop, and be sure to grind consistently in this position. That is, pulling the jig, which seems a bit awkward after having spent so much time saying that resting the palm on top of the SVM is key to stability and consistency.
In addition, what we see in the video is mostly done with the USB against the top (standard) stop. I fail to see how you'd set up your jig using the sharpie method (or a calculator or the infamous AngleMaster) against the top stop, then decide to offset it here and there by 8 degrees.
I was afraid this new jig would have me put away my 5 SVM-45s, but given how small the actual concavity of the grind is, my initial estimate is that I'll use one of these for very thick of very thin knives and use my SVM-45s for the rest, probably with the pin-pivot collar.
And another question that comes to mind: if I stop the video @0:18, where the sharpener is feeling for the burr, I see the gap between the jaws somewhat tighter at the handle side than it is at the blade side. And also the jaws seem to contact the very spine of the blade, much like today's SVM-45s.
For a self-centering jig to be efficient, I would expect it to be flat against the sides of the blade, and somehow wider in the middle, around the black plastic screw, so that it then pinches the blade and holds it in place. Else the jaws might be centered but the blade offset to be flat against one jaw or the other.
What do you think ?
Quote from: tgbto on March 21, 2022, 08:33:52 AM
I've tried to estimate what the impact of this dual-stop configuration would be on the actual apex angle. Eyeballing the gap in the video, i'd say there's a 12 to 15mm gap between the outside edge of the usb when in the "standard" position, and the top of the bottom stop.
If this is true, and if I got my math right, that would mean a 7 to 10 dps difference in apex angle compared to the shoulder angle. It's a huge difference, don't you think ?
If I'm correct in saying that the apex angle matters more than the shoulder angle, then it means we'll have to set our angles for the position where the usb is against the lower stop, and be sure to grind consistently in this position. That is, pulling the jig, which seems a bit awkward after having spent so much time saying that resting the palm on top of the SVM is key to stability and consistency.
...
Probably a "wait and see" answer here... will be curious to see how Tormek demos creating a convex edge. I suspect it will be for just a few style knives (like maybe a cleaver?)
Quote from: tgbto on March 21, 2022, 09:10:31 AM
And another question that comes to mind: if I stop the video @0:18, where the sharpener is feeling for the burr, I see the gap between the jaws somewhat tighter at the handle side than it is at the blade side. And also the jaws seem to contact the very spine of the blade, much like today's SVM-45s.
For a self-centering jig to be efficient, I would expect it to be flat against the sides of the blade, and somehow wider in the middle, around the black plastic screw, so that it then pinches the blade and holds it in place. Else the jaws might be centered but the blade offset to be flat against one jaw or the other.
What do you think ?
I wouldn't put much stock in a "demo" video... just like the standard jig, I would think the gap can be adjusted. Like I mentioned earlier, clamping tapered blades is one of the stated features.
Quote from: tgbto on March 21, 2022, 09:10:31 AM
And another question that comes to mind: if I stop the video @0:18, where the sharpener is feeling for the burr, I see the gap between the jaws somewhat tighter at the handle side than it is at the blade side. And also the jaws seem to contact the very spine of the blade, much like today's SVM-45s.
For a self-centering jig to be efficient, I would expect it to be flat against the sides of the blade, and somehow wider in the middle, around the black plastic screw, so that it then pinches the blade and holds it in place. Else the jaws might be centered but the blade offset to be flat against one jaw or the other.
What do you think ?
I'm with Ken and CB, I think we just have to wait and see about all these speculations when we get out hands on these new jigs.
As for your question about the gap, I think you are correct and the Tormek manual describes the need to adjust the screws so the jaws grip the knife spine/blade so they are in contact all along it. As CB says, I think it would be hard to judge from a video. And I am like you, not going to set aside all my current jigs and go out and replace them with this new one. For one thing, I have made the Knife Grinders modifications of relieving the jaw faces on three of mine, two at 0.5mm and one at 1.0mm and use shims to center the blades, so I don't know that I'll be getting one of these new ones very quickly.
Rick
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 21, 2022, 01:39:01 PM
Probably a "wait and see" answer here... will be curious to see how Tormek demos creating a convex edge. I suspect it will be for just a few style knives (like maybe a cleaver?)
Sure, but hey... what's the fun in announcing stuff early if we can't speculate ;D
That being said, I think the only time I nicked a stone was when I didn't keep the jig in place by pressing it firmly against the USB. That seems to be a case for edge-trailing sharpening using the USB. Did anyone say FVB ^^ ?
Sure, but hey... what's the fun in announcing stuff early if we can't speculate ;D"
I think that may be the real crux of the problem; the jigs were announced before both availability and, especially, before a proper online class.
Ken
Some misc. thoughts:
Like Rick (and several others), I have standardized on 139mm projection. It works well most of the time (except for paring knives) with the SVM-45 jig. I suspect I may have to recalibrate with the new KJ-45 jig. Having two stops may actually work out better with paring knives. As Rick stated, recalibrating is no big deal.
Looking at the jig instructions, I don't think aligning the jig surfaces to match a blade taper will be a problem. I agree with CB on this. It's too bad if this does not show clearly on the short video. Hopefully, a more in-depth video will clarify this.
Like Projection, a pivot point jig, while useful, is not part of Tormek's technique. All of the online classes showing knife sharpening include sharpening a skinning knife with a sharp curve in the blade shape. I suspect the longer video for the KJ-45 will also include a skinning knife.
Looking into my crystal ball, I predict that those of us who purchase a KJ-45 will probably use it most of the time. I have the early SVH-60 square edge jig in case I ever have to sharpen a thick "pig sticker" mortise chisel. To date, I have never used it. I have my old SVD-185 gouge jig, modified with Rich Colvin's rotary cutter jig parts. I will keep my seven present knife jigs, just is case, although I doubt they will see much service.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on March 21, 2022, 11:53:48 PM
Some misc. thoughts:
...
I suspect the longer video for the KJ-45 will also include a skinning knife.
Looking into my crystal ball, I predict that ...
I predict that the 'long video' will present a new method for setting the grinding angle ;)
I had overlooked the jig instructions, my bad. So yes, we will be able to clamp tapered blades nicely.
I have not found a word on using motion between the stops for convex edges though.
Your first sentence says a lot. You are certainly not the first or only Tormek user to "overlook the jig instructions".
In my opinion, the primary reason for the new knife jig is the self centering feature. This feature seems automatic and needing little explanation. I am guessing that convexing may have been a secondary benefit, I don't fully understand the convexing procedure. It seems like it might be complex enough to require a more in depth explanation than just a short general video or a mention in a too often overlooked instruction sheet.
I do not believe that Tormek would have even mentioned convexing if they were not convinced from extensive testing that the jig convexed well.
I look forward to learning more.
Ken
Please pardon my poor english, I misspoke.
I meant I had not noticed the "Documents" tab on the Tormek jig presentation pages, although they might have been here for years. Not that I did not consider the instructions important, I've read the manual several times for each jig I own, and read it again each time I use the DBS-22 to commit it back to memory.
Cheers,
Nick.
Nick,
I apparently misspoke, also. I meant no offense. Such things are easily overlooked. (For the record, I watch Alan Holtham's excellent video on the DBS-22 every time before sharpening drill bits.)
My point was supposed to be that convexing is a secondary benefit of the KJ-45 and perhaps too complex for a short video or even the instructions.
Ken
I just spoke with Sharpening
Supplies, and they said the new knife jigs will not be available in the U.S. until June (no specific date).
Tormek has posted on YouTube two new videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXa04SpMgGs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmhb_IN6oEM
Are they accepting pre-orders? Waiting is frustrating; however, based on my limited knowledge of the new jigs, I believe the new jigs will be worth the wait.
Ken
Quote from: dewarner on March 28, 2022, 04:45:03 PM
I just spoke with SharpeningSupplies, and they said the new knife jigs will not be available in the U.S. until June (no specific date).
Clones will be out by then... ;) :D :D
Quote from: Sharpco on March 19, 2022, 09:17:02 AM
Quote from: cbwx34 on March 18, 2022, 12:29:21 PM
I'm not convinced about the convex ability, but what I see (maybe) is a built in "pin pivot" collar. ;)
IMHO, the space is too narrow for "pin pivot". So I think we have to use both SVM and KJ.
Tormek actually (surprisingly) demonstrated pivoting off the front collar in their video (https://youtu.be/JFHqQg5wZEg?t=2380), (although they say it's not necessary).
So, I'm back to "maybe"! ;)
Quote from: Ken S on March 28, 2022, 05:36:01 PM
Are they accepting pre-orders? Waiting is frustrating; however, based on my limited knowledge of the new jigs, I believe the new jigs will be worth the wait.
Ken
In the video Wolfgang says shipments have left Sweden...
Unfortunately, Tormek US says they are on a container ship that has been delayed. Their arrival is estimated for June with no date specified.
Quote from: cbwx34 on April 07, 2022, 04:39:52 PM
Tormek actually (surprisingly) demonstrated pivoting off the front collar in their video (https://youtu.be/JFHqQg5wZEg?t=2380), (although they say it's not necessary).
So, I'm back to "maybe"! ;)
I noticed that. Got a small chuckle from it.
Rick
Quote from: dewarner on April 07, 2022, 06:00:37 PM
Unfortunately, Tormek US says they are on a container ship that has been delayed. Their arrival is estimated for June with no date specified.
I forwarded this to Stig for clarification. Here is his reply:
"Hi Ken,
Just to clarify, shipping these days takes around 6 weeks before a container makes it over the Atlantic. Add some weeks of handling and we are into June.
There are no delays, it's normal shipping time and the jigs will be available thru our dealers mid-summer."
Ken
All of the below is true in addition to being told by Tormek that only limited quantities will be available in June. Advanced Machinery, having placed our orders with Tormek, is accepting pre-orders at this time.