I have the chance to pick up a 4000 grit Sun King wheel. I have no problem with the wheel that came with my used Tormek T7. I'm just wondering if it would be an upgrade to switch to the Sun King wheel. Thanks.
Quote from: jspill on August 20, 2017, 06:36:03 PM
I have the chance to pick up a 4000 grit Sun King wheel. I have no problem with the wheel that came with my used Tormek T7. I'm just wondering if it would be an upgrade to switch to the Sun King wheel. Thanks.
The 4K King wheel is more of a polishing wheel. It could be used in addition to the stock wheel... to create a finer, more polished and refined edge... but it's not a replacement for the stock wheel... (it would be more of an alternative for the leather honing wheel).
So, for example, if all your knives/tools were sharpened with the stock wheel, you could then install the King 4K wheel and maintain the edges with it.
I'm sorry I made a mistake in naming the wheel I'm interested in. It is the Sun Tiger not Sun King wheel. It is produced by the Matsumaga company. I have heard that older Tormek machines were equipped with this wheel.
Quote from: jspill on August 20, 2017, 06:47:47 PM
I'm sorry I made a mistake in naming the wheel I'm interested in. It is the Sun Tiger not Sun King wheel. It is produced by the Matsumaga company. I have heard that older Tormek machines were equipped with this wheel.
Pretty sure it's the same wheel. Here's a bit of info I found...
QuoteJapanese Water Stone Wheel Sun Tiger Grain Size 4000
Improve your Tormek with these premier Japanese water stone wheels, made by Matsunaga (Brands: King and Sun Tiger) With the 4000 grain size you achieve a mirror polished edge. Specially recommended for those who sharpen a lot of knives and want a perfectly sharp edge without using a leather strip.
Either way, if it's a 4K wheel... it's a polish/finishing wheel... not a sharpening wheel. (A replacement for the stock wheel, would be the 800g Japanese Waterstone version).
Thank you for taking the time to answer my question. I found out just what I needed to know.
You're welcome... hope it helped.
I think the question needs a more thorough answer. Unfortunately, I have not seen any reliable, thorough head to head test of the Tormek SJ grinding wheel and the Sun Tiger wheel. I own an SJ-250. I rarely use it, however, it seems like a quality product. It fits well and polishes well. I do not own a SunTiger 4000 grit wheel, so I cannot comment about it.
I do own a King 600 grit grinding wheel. I purchased it several years ago based on Ionut's recommendation. I tried it once, was not impressed, and put it away. I freely admit this was not a fair test. The SG-250 cut better. The King wheel sort of worked with the Tormek. At 254mm diameter, I suspect it is actually a ten inch wheel rather than 250mm. It was a tight fit in the water trough. The bore fit was too tight. Mounting and dismounting was a hassle. There was no inset in the outer edge.
I do not mean to imply that non Tormek grinding wheels are inferior. I would also not accept a verdict that other brands are "just as good as Tormek wheels" without supporting tests or experience from someone I trust.
I recently watched a you tube video of the SJ-250. I have seen several reviews by this reviewer. He seems fair minded and has some experience. Two things in the video gave me pause. First, he fumbled with the EZYlock. Instead of turning the grinding wheel to lightly tighten the EZYlock and letting the motor do the rest. No big deal, just not polished technique. The second thing, which I have noticed in you tubes by other sharpeners, was when he showed much reduced scratch patterns "in just five minutes". I wish he had spent more time and properly finished the job. No one who uses a 4000 grit SJ grinding wheel is in a hurry. Why not complete the job?
I am not opposed to using non Tormek grinding wheels. I have had very good results with two Norton 3X wheels and three CBN wheels. For day to day sharpening, my go to grinding wheel has always been the SG. For my work, the leather honing wheel provides acceptable polish. For a higher polish, I would turn to my SJ-250. Other wheels might work just as well, or they might not. I know the SJ will do the job.
Ken
Ken, you're absolutely right about the #4000 Matsunaga (Sun-Tiger).
I got one over year ago out of curiosity, and have been using it and SJ-250, and SJ-250 is superior in every aspect.
#4000 Matsunaga (Sun-Tiger) wobbles, flakes, and doesn't polish as well as SJ-250.
I've almost stopped using the #4000 Matsunaga wheel by now.
#800 Matsunaga wheel is, however, a different story - it is a must have. The Japanese grit JIS #800 corresponds to the European FEPA #1200, i.e. is somewhat finer than "finely" graded Tormek's SG-250.
Excellent post, Wootz. (I would expect no less from you!) This is the kind of side by side testing by a reputable person that I have been looking for.
As I have both a T7 and a T8, I will try placing my SG-250 on one graded coarse and my finer King stone on the other.
Ken
I have that wheel and have no problem with it within its limits. It is a polishing wheel and that is all. It is just so you can say you used a 4000 grit wheel on your edge. There is no benefit in the real world.
Quote from: jeffs55 on August 21, 2017, 11:45:55 PM
I have that wheel and have no problem with it within its limits. It is a polishing wheel and that is all. It is just so you can say you used a 4000 grit wheel on your edge. There is no benefit in the real world.
Sure. Even going from the original SG grit #220 straight to honing, you still get a shaving edge ("scraping shaving" to be exact).
But in paid sharpening, the customer returns when you do at least some bevel polishing.
Safe queens require the fine SJ
Sure. Even going from the original SG grit #220 straight to honing, you still get a shaving edge ("scraping shaving" to be exact).
But in paid sharpening, the customer returns when you do at least some bevel polishing.
Safe queens require the fine SJ
As we all know, the customer is never right
[/quote]
"Polish level" shouldn't be the only thing to look at... typically a harder medium will leave a crisper more refined edge (and retain more 'bite'), than a comparable finish level on a softer medium like leather. You should be seeing a difference in how the knife/tool actually performs. That, to me is the indicator of whether or not something should be used. "Polish" becomes a byproduct.
I have found that a good practice is to
- sharpen with the SB or SG stone, and then
- sharpen a microbevel on the SJ stone (with around 2 degrees greater included angle).
Then, I can re-sharpen quickly on the SJ stone a number of times before having to go back to the SB/SG stone.
But this works for me as I am only sharpening my own knives.
Rich
I'm with cbwx on this one. Given the choice, and not concerned about the cost, I'd prefer refining an edge on a finer stone and rely less on leather loaded with abrasives to finish the job
Is it necessary though? Well, that's entirely up to you and what you're going to use the knife/tool for.
Comparing to use of bench stones, as i have more experience there and the idea carries just the same to grinding wheels: I've owned stones ranging from 220 to around 18k, in addition to a set of diamond plates (the grits of which escape me at the moment), and lapping films
-Cheap kitchen knives with softer steels stop at the 2k stone (only because i need to get another stone in the 1-1,200 range,or I would stop there. Coincidentally, it's a King 1k I've been meaning to order, it gets great reviews for the price)
-My Japanese knives of better and harder steel go up to the 5k stone (and yes, for these i find the difference to be noticeable and worthwhile for the extra 5 minutes it takes to polish on one more stone)
-the diamond plates had been relegated to chisels and plane blades only. Sometimes to be followed up on a leather bench strop loaded with crox, but again, only if the job really requires a perfect finish straight off the tool with no sanding needed
-anything above the 5k stone is straight razor polishing territory, unless I just feel like screwing around and showing off a crazy overkill finish on a knife just for the fun of it.
But back to the question of "is it necessary"; I once followed a thread on another board where members were challenged to sharpen and use straight razors off nothing more than a 1k stone for a month. Many were able to do it successfully (i was not). And i don't mean "scraping shaving", as wootz so aptly put it, but hair popping above the surface of the skin sharp.
The point of that experiment was to prove that ability to cut is a matter of your bevel setting, and how cleaning you can make the two sides meet at the edge. Anything beyond that point, like others here have said, is just polishing.
When gliding a blade along your face, polishing could be the difference between the feel of a smooth new disposable razor and one that's a week old and a bit grabby. Both are still sharp enough to sever hairs, but one is definitely smoother on your skin, right? The same applies to a bevel rubbing a wood surface, or gliding through delicate foods.
When pushing a chisel through wood, a polished bevel could leave a glass like surface.... But if you're planning to sand anyway, or say you're chiseling out dovetails where a) the surface will never be seen and b) you want the pores open to accept glue, you don't necessarily want that anyway.
Forgetting looks, unless that's reaaaaallly important for your purposes, each tool should be sharpened only to the max level that will actually be a benefit to the tool. Anything else is a waste of time, effort and money.
Long story short (sorry, very bored at work today lol) I think the very first question that should've been asked here is: what are YOU sharpening? Then better opinions could be given on whether or not a polishing wheel would be a benefit to your particular needs
Somewhat unrelated to this but I think this is the right group to get the proper answer.
My SG250 is down to 230. Would it work on a T4 once it is below 200 and I purchase a new wheel for the T8
Best Wishes
Tim
Quote from: bisonbladesharpening on August 23, 2017, 01:04:28 AM
Somewhat unrelated to this but I think this is the right group to get the proper answer.
My SG250 is down to 230. Would it work on a T4 once it is below 200 and I purchase a new wheel for the T8
Best Wishes
Tim
I don't believe so... the T-4 wheel is only 40mm wide (vs. 50mm of the T-8)... so it won't fit width wise... at least not without some alterations (longer shaft and different water container would be needed... even then, not sure if it's possible).
That question has been discussed a couple of times before. One such topic:
https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2834.0
I hate when I make an assumption without actually trying to see if it works. Assuming that the wider stone wouldn't fit... until I read in the thread grepper referenced, where Ken stated the shaft lengths were "about the same"... appears to be an incorrect assumption.
I recently acquired a T-4, so went to investigate. Sure enough, the shaft on the T-4 extends out farther than on the larger model (apparently why the EzyLock cap is wider on the T-4).
So, I got my used 50mm wide stone (currently at about 218mm) and put it on the T-4. (See attached picture... Photo 1). From what I could tell, it might actually work.
There is enough shaft extending out, to screw on the EzyLock (Photos 2,3). I used the metal version... not sure if enough extends out for the T-4 version to adequately work, and didn't want to risk breaking it.
The water trough also has enough width to accommodate the 50mm stone (Photos 4,5,6... another surprise). I couldn't move it into place (stone is still to big of a diameter), but holding it up underneath, it cleared no problem. In Photo 6, I hooked one side of the trough, and there appeared to be enough clearance width.
So, with palms sweating, I hit the "ON" button. T-4 started right up... no issues that I could tell.
I can't answer if any issues would crop up... for example, is the machine: motor, housing, etc., robust enough to support the wider stone? And, I'm not sure if the EzyLock that comes with the T-4 would work. But, from this experiment anyway... no other mods appear to be needed to at least install the wider stone on the T-4... and can't say now that it "wouldn't work"... it appears possible.
It looks kind of cool on there! Like nice big tires on a truck. If it fits and goes round and round, I'd try it and see if it indeed works. But that's just me.
I could be wrong, (for the first time in my life ::) ), but I doubt if any forum members can really answer your question about machine robustness, etc. I would surely think the housing would have not problems. Since you got it to fit, and if it seems to work, you may be good to go.
However, you could always run it by Tormek support and see what they say. If you do, please let us know.
Well done, CB.
I think we have two questions to consider: Is it possible, and, is it practical? We can further divide practicality into mechanically and cost efficiently.
CB beat me to the finish line. I have been extremely busy this week, and have not gone down to my workshop. In the back of my mind, I was starting to think that the shaft length might not be such an issue. The bushings on my eight and ten inch CBN are the same part. My steel CBN wheels are 1 1/2" thick (approximately 38mm). The eight inch wheel works fine on the T7 or T8, which means it would work on any 250mm Tormek. I do not remember if I tested the T4 water trough for width with the SG-250. I am guilty of operating on an assumption, sloppy procedure.
I replaced both the plastic EZYlock and the plain nut on the leather honing wheel with the steel EZYlock and the quick connect nut, both originally intended for the T7/8. The fit is exact. (My opinion is that the plastic EZYlock and plain nut were used to keep cost down.) I interchange with five wheels on the EZYlock side, and prefer to leave the wheels dismounted after use. I like to remove (and replace) the leather honing wheel after use to keep the housing cleaner. I found the standard parts adequate. I just find the upgraded parts more to my liking. Some people soup up their cars; I drive a plain car and soup up my Tormeks. The replacement parts cost around fifteen US dollars wach, and should be available through any dealer. The new website has well drawn exploded parts diagrams with part numbers.
I am somewhat concerned with the shorten thread length with the wider wheel on the T4. It has not been a problem with my other wheels. Due to the low RPM, it also does not seem a major safety concern.
I have faith that the T4's machined zinc top can meet the challenge of the wider grinding wheel. It handles my heavier steel CBN wheel without difficulty. So does the motor.
To me, the real question is the cost practicality. If one happens to already have a T4, this becomes a moot point. However, if the point is to avoid the cost of a replacement SG-250, around $190 US, spending $425 seems poor thrift to me. A T7 close out would not cost much more, and it comes with a brand new SG-250.
When an SG-250 has worn down to 200mm, it still has a loy of usefulness, however, eventual replacement is inevitable. Why not order the replacement and have the benefits of both a full diameter grinding wheel and a very usable spare for heavy work? There even seems to be a market for well worn used Tormek wheels, which would lessen the cost of a new wheel.
I think I may view the Tormek differently than many members. This may be in part because my first Tormek was stolen. I tend to regard grinding wheels, stone graders, and the diamond tip of the TT-50 truing tool as long term consumables, like brake shoes on my vehicle. If my plastic EZYlock nut broke, I would just order a replacement (steel) part. I still find the Tormek an amazing machine, but one made with replaceable parts.
Good snooping, CB.
Ken
Quote from: Ken S on August 24, 2017, 11:17:03 AM
Well done, CB.
I think we have two questions to consider: Is it possible, and, is it practical? We can further divide practicality into mechanically and cost efficiently.
CB beat me to the finish line. I have been extremely busy this week, and have not gone down to my workshop. In the back of my mind, I was starting to think that the shaft length might not be such an issue. The bushings on my eight and ten inch CBN are the same part. My steel CBN wheels are 1 1/2" thick (approximately 38mm). The eight inch wheel works fine on the T7 or T8, which means it would work on any 250mm Tormek. I do not remember if I tested the T4 water trough for width with the SG-250. I am guilty of operating on an assumption, sloppy procedure.
I replaced both the plastic EZYlock and the plain nut on the leather honing wheel with the steel EZYlock and the quick connect nut, both originally intended for the T7/8. The fit is exact. (My opinion is that the plastic EZYlock and plain nut were used to keep cost down.) I interchange with five wheels on the EZYlock side, and prefer to leave the wheels dismounted after use. I like to remove (and replace) the leather honing wheel after use to keep the housing cleaner. I found the standard parts adequate. I just find the upgraded parts more to my liking. Some people soup up their cars; I drive a plain car and soup up my Tormeks. The replacement parts cost around fifteen US dollars wach, and should be available through any dealer. The new website has well drawn exploded parts diagrams with part numbers.
I am somewhat concerned with the shorten thread length with the wider wheel on the T4. It has not been a problem with my other wheels. Due to the low RPM, it also does not seem a major safety concern.
I have faith that the T4's machined zinc top can meet the challenge of the wider grinding wheel. It handles my heavier steel CBN wheel without difficulty. So does the motor.
To me, the real question is the cost practicality. If one happens to already have a T4, this becomes a moot point. However, if the point is to avoid the cost of a replacement SG-250, around $190 US, spending $425 seems poor thrift to me. A T7 close out would not cost much more, and it comes with a brand new SG-250.
When an SG-250 has worn down to 200mm, it still has a loy of usefulness, however, eventual replacement is inevitable. Why not order the replacement and have the benefits of both a full diameter grinding wheel and a very usable spare for heavy work? There even seems to be a market for well worn used Tormek wheels, which would lessen the cost of a new wheel.
I think I may view the Tormek differently than many members. This may be in part because my first Tormek was stolen. I tend to regard grinding wheels, stone graders, and the diamond tip of the TT-50 truing tool as long term consumables, like brake shoes on my vehicle. If my plastic EZYlock nut broke, I would just order a replacement (steel) part. I still find the Tormek an amazing machine, but one made with replaceable parts.
Good snooping, CB.
Ken
In my opinion... this isn't really... buying a T-4 to continue using a stone below 200mm. I see it as a T4 owner having access to a stone (mainly the SB-250), they otherwise wouldn't be able to use, being able to buy a used stone that still has some life, and even the benefits of sharpening on a wider surface. Different way of looking at it I guess.
Speaking of costs... I'm kinda surprised that Tormek doesn't just use the same shaft for both... doesn't seem to be much of a difference. (I'm sure there's reasons for it though)... ??? I think the metal EzyLock will hold though, on the shorter distance. If I had a stone small enough in diameter... I'd do an actual test to see if it worked over time.
Bummer your first Tormek was stolen... glad you stuck with it though. ;)
Quote from: grepper on August 24, 2017, 08:08:24 AM
It looks kind of cool on there! Like nice big tires on a truck. If it fits and goes round and round, I'd try it and see if it indeed works. But that's just me.
I could be wrong, (for the first time in my life ::) ), but I doubt if any forum members can really answer your question about machine robustness, etc. I would surely think the housing would have not problems. Since you got it to fit, and if it seems to work, you may be good to go.
However, you could always run it by Tormek support and see what they say. If you do, please let us know.
Ha... I thought the same thing... looks pretty cool.
I know the forum can't answer the durability questions... just thought I'd point out mainly that I have no idea... so "buyer beware". From the other thread, RichColvin already asked Tormek and was told no... so probably won't pursue that. (I would think if they wanted users to do it, they would advertise it... since it would make a good selling point?) (Support... not advertise, might be a better word...).