Need help with honing on T1

[ilikefood]

I got my Tormek T1 a couple weeks ago and I'm having difficulty getting sharp results with honing specifically. Everything is good on the diamond wheel - my angle is correct. I know the manufactured angle of the two knives I sharpened (Wüsthof chef's knife at 15 and a Wüsthof santoku at 12), and also verified the angle with the marker on edge method. I get a nice burr along the entire edge I can feel with my finger. After I'm done on the diamond wheel, the knife cuts paper, though a bit roughly.

Then I go to the honing wheel, do a few even light passes, the burr disappears (I can no longer feel it or see it) - and the knife is more dull than it was before honing.

I tried to make sure I don't use too steep of an angle on the honing wheel, I used the marker method for honing as well, but maybe I have trouble keeping the right angle? I've tried using very light pressure and harder pressure, without any improvement in results. Feels like I need an angle guide for honing, though I'm reading that the exact honing angle doesn't matter that much.

Any advice?

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, John.

There is a step you do not mention. It is part of both online classes with the T2. I am not sure if it is mentioned in the T1 online class. In my opinion, it should be part of all of the classes. After the burr is created with the diamond grinding wheel, Johan, the T2 presenter, takes one VERY light pass on each side to remove most of the burr. This extra step lightens the load of the composite honing wheel.

I believe this may be your problem. Please keep us posted, whether this helps or not.

Ken

[ilikefood]

Welcome to the forum, John.

There is a step you do not mention. It is part of both online classes with the T2. I am not sure if it is mentioned in the T1 online class. In my opinion, it should be part of all of the classes. After the burr is created with the diamond grinding wheel, Johan, the T2 presenter, takes one VERY light pass on each side to remove most of the burr. This extra step lightens the load of the composite honing wheel.

I believe this may be your problem. Please keep us posted, whether this helps or not.

Ken

Thank you, yes, I did do the light pass (I saw a video that recommended that) and after that pass the knife is fairly sharp, cuts through a paper towel pretty easily though roughly. Then I hone it, and it gets dull.

[Ken S]

I suggest you use your black marker on your bevels after sharpening and before honing. This should tell you if you are honing at the correct angle. If you are honing at too low of an angle, the honing wheel will not contact the apex, the very tip of your knife..if your honing angle is too high, you will lift the wheelst the apex and round the edge.

Do not become discouraged. Once you solve the puzzle you will have very sharp knives.

Ken

[tgbto]

The OP  mentioned they did use the sharpie before honing as well...

I would advise using a cheap microscope to clearly see what is going on : is there any burr left (jagged apex with shiny and matte spots) ? is your sharpie removed at the apex, or at the root of the bevel ?

I don't know about the T1, but sometimes you can think there is no burr because it is no longer felt as a thin foil of metal, yet there is actually some kind of a compact layer of soft metal (the root of the burr) that is still there. One good way of telling if this is the case is to mark a spot along the edge and cut a piece of tensioned nylon wire, just by pressing the knife down at this very spot (no sawing motion at all). This is akin to what you do to measure the BESS score of your edge. If there is still some burr left, you will see a tiny nick under the microscope, the same diameter as your wire.

What I would try is honing *a lot more*, and not just until you dont feel the burr with your fingers. As for the angle, as long as you are not using way too high an angle it should be okay, make sure you are consistently hitting the edge. You should be able to tell if you're hitting the burr by the difference in sound/feel it makes when you increase the honing angle. On the T8 composite honing wheel, the difference can be felt more easily when a few drops of watere are sprinkled over the wheel before you start honing.

Good luck !

[Ken S]

John has presented a commendable post, doing many things right. All of "the usual suspects" have good alibis. Considering that the honing wheel for the T1 is also used the same way with the T2, and can also be used with the T4, I do not believe we have seen enough problem posts to conclude that there is something wrong with the honing wheel itself. However, we have seen enough problem posts to make me think that there may be some room for improvement in the way this honing wheel is presented in the training. Hopefully more emphasis might be given in a future online class. I will email Tormek about this.

Ken

[ilikefood]

The advice above worked! I played with my T1 quite a bit today, and finally got super sharp knives. Very excited!

I very much agree that the instructional/training videos could be better. Here is what specifically helped me:

I suggest you use your black marker on your bevels after sharpening and before honing. This should tell you if you are honing at the correct angle.

and also:

What I would try is honing *a lot more*

and:

You should be able to tell if you're hitting the burr by the difference in sound/feel it makes when you increase the honing angle. On the T8 composite honing wheel, the difference can be felt more easily when a few drops of water are sprinkled over the wheel before you start honing.

Before, I was using the marker method for honing, but in one place on the edge and just at the start, to roughly find the correct angle. This time I marked the whole length of the edge, made the honing wheel wet, and paid very close attention to how the sound changes with different angles. I started at a very shallow angle (not hitting the edge yet), listened for how sound changed when I increased the angle, and verified where the marker was rubbed off. This allowed me to find the correct angle all along the blade, checking multiple times. I made multiple passes, marking the edge each time, and eventually I got a feeling for what the correct angle feels/sounds like.

Making the honing wheel wet slows down the honing process, so it's harder to mess up, and that really helps. It's also much easier to see where the edge is contacting the wheel and where it isn't (as the edge scrapes off the wetness).

It also helped to "hone a lot more'.

I do not believe we have seen enough problem posts to conclude that there is something wrong with the honing wheel itself. However, we have seen enough problem posts to make me think that there may be some room for improvement in the way this honing wheel is presented in the training. Hopefully more emphasis might be given in a future online class. I will email Tormek about this.

Ken

Based on my experience just now, totally agree. The instructional videos made it sound like honing is super easy and quick, just a few light passes on a dry honing wheel, angle doesn't matter much, and you have a sharp knife. In reality it takes quite a bit longer and requires developing a good feeling for the correct angle. It's not super difficult, but does require some effort and time to learn. So yeah, better, more accurate instructional videos from Tormek, setting the right expectations, would really help.

And I suppose to make the T1 really foolproof, it would be helpful to have an angle guide for the honing wheel as well.

Anyway, I have sharper knives know than I've ever had, and I'm very happy with my T1. Thank you all for your help!

[Ken S]

Ilikefood,

I am pleased that your knives are now sharper than ever before. Support agreed with my suggestion that there is room for an advanced honing class. They also stressed the importance of correct angle when honing.

I believe we are evolving to higher standards of sharpness in our hardware, steels, and techniques. I am curious to see what the coming years will produce.

Ken