Path to Up My Sharpening Game

[MetalPro]

First post here - I'd like to start by saying thanks for all the great information already accumulated in these forums.  I inherited a Supergrind 2000 from my father about 18 years ago and he had owned and operated it for probably a decade before that.  It came to me on a nice stand that he had built with drawers and sliding door cabinet. It also came with several jigs and fixtures mainly for sharpening lathe tools but also the knife jig and the planer blade jig.  It also has the extra side honing wheel for shaped tools.  I have used it since I got it as 'utility' sharpener - mainly for kitchen knives, scissors and outdoor blades (chipper knives, pruners, etc) by going from the main stone with jigs to honing side wheel freehand.  I preferred to use waterstones for all my chisels and planer blades just because I was used to this system and good at it, even though it is time consuming. 

I thought it only had the standard main stone which does not have a name on it (but I assume is equivalent to the current SG250) until the other day when I finally looked in the back of the bottom self on the cabinet side - there was a box just the right size to be a stone - it turned out to be a NIB old stock Matsunaga Sun Tiger 4000 grit stone.  Doing some research online about this stone led me to the Knife Grinders AUS site and this site which, after much reading, has convinced me that the Supergrind might be a bit more than a utility sharpener.  I think my issue has always been getting the hang of the freehand honing - after reading it turns out that there are many solutions to this right on the Tormek.

So here is my plan of action to up my Tormek game:
- Download some blade angle setting software, most likely the TormekCalc Excel version available here and figure out how to set angles precisely (thanks in advance jvh)
- Make or upgrade to the front vertical block and possibly the larger US-430 support with micro adjust to get consistent angles on the current honing wheel
- For now, I think I'm ok with the rest of the small upgrades that are typically recommended

The main question:
- I am considering a new wheel for finer grit or honing - I am considering adding a rock hard felt wheel or possible a paper wheel that would accept a diamond solution.  The routine would then be - SG250 for main grind and angle set then to Sun Tiger 4000 to refine and finally to the paper or felt wheel with a 1 micron solution.  I did try the Sun Tiger and was actually quite pleased with it despite reading some of the reviews on here first - mine ran true and certainly refined the SG250 surface.
- Another choice is to spend a bit more and add a diamond wheel - possibly the DF or DE; the routine would then be SG250 to DF to hone

Hope you can all help me spend some $ - which route do you think will be the most satisfying?

Thanks in advance,
Keith

[tgbto]

If I may, the newest MB-102 will be both a cheap FVB as well as a useful addition to your lineup. The US-430 is a must for knives. A nice pair of vernier calipers will come in handy with the software.

The way I see it, I don't mix SG/SJ stones with the diamond ones. They have very different scratch patterns, they require ACC if you want to use them wet, require much lower pressure, ... They will have an interest if you want to sharpen carbide tools or need constant wheel diameters for your process. You're talking about scissors, they're not to be sharpened with diamond stones unless you want to destroy the wheel real quick.

SG250 to DF won't refine much, and change your scratch pattern. If you're into polished edges (which are usually not recommended for most kitchen knives, outdoor blades and scissors), that might do more harm than good. Also, there are mixed experiences with paper or felt wheels on standard-steel knives.





 

[RickKrung]

I think you would be very well served to just take your time with the grinding wheels you have, gain some experience and practice, before leaping into more wheels and/or methods and accessories. 

I would even just stick with the standard honing wheel procedures until you get thoroughly comfortable with it all.  I believe that only then will you have a solid basis for what you may want to add to the mix.  It is vital to gain proficiency with the basis.  It is all to easy to get distracted with all the other stuff with the result that the fundamentals are overlooked.  None of that stuff is required to get excellently sharp edges. 

I think getting the MB-102 is a good one, in order to gain the FVB functionallity.  It will greatly enhance your honing experience and learning.  It would also be extremely helpful for using the Sun Tiger wheel in an edge-trailing mode, which is probably the better what to learn its use.  If you use it like the grinding wheel(s), there is the chance you will catch the edge and gouge the wheel and toss the knife. 

For angle setting, consider just using the distance from the USB to the wheel, rather than measuring the distance from the USB to the machine case.  Using the wheel to USB distance greatly simplifies angle setting. I got swept up into using the USB height and KG's angle setting software, for several years, hearing from some about the simplicity of just using the wheel to USB distance.  Once I seriously tried it, I've never done anything else. The main advance is the simplicity, but hidden in there is that it avoids all the intermediate parameters, which all contribute some level of errors and imprecision.  And while mentioning precision, experience has shown many of us that tight angle precision setting is not necessary, even though it "feels" right or better. 

As far as a tool for the angle setting process, I would recommend a mechanical dial caliper, rather than vernier.  I started with vernier tools in the 1960s, first with a slide rule and then with vernier calipers in my father's machine shop.  They are perfectly functional, but require attention to proper use, which is not nearly as critical as dial calipers. 

Photos below show two methods for tools used in setting the angle, stone to USB distance.  I use and angle setting app to determine what the distance should be.  Set my calipers for that distance and then use the calipers to set the distance setting tool.  Shown below are two, a woodworker's marking gauge (my standard) or a common adjustable square.  Part of the reason for this is that the width of most calipers barely reach the centerline of the USB, whereas the other tools easily do.  Also notice the rubber band stretched between the wheel axle and the USB, used as a reference for aligning the setting tool. 

Most of all, have fun and spend a lot of time practicing.

Rick

[Ken S]

One of my favorite quotes, which, I believe applies to many topics posted on the forum, is from Prussian General, Carl von Clausewitz: "The enemy of a good plan is the dream of a perfect plan". I have personally watched Tormek expert, Stig Reitan, sharpen expertly using the traditional Tormek technique. Is the traditional Tormek technique "the perfect plan"? I don't know. Having watched Stig using it, I have full faith that it is a good plan. I would be reluctant to vary too far from it without substantial reason.

The FVB (frontal vertical base) is a useful accessory. It is not magic. It allows the support bar to be elevated enough to clear the plastic locking knobs of the knife jig and the two horizontal sleeves. This could be done inexpensively with grub screws; however, in my opinion, the convenience and efficiency of an FVB more than justifies the extra cost.

Master "the good plan" before chasing "the perfect plan".

Ken

[John Hancock Sr]

Master "the good plan" before chasing "the perfect plan".

Totally agree. You can achieve exceptional results just using the Tormek jigs and wheels. My philosophy is to buy what you need when you need it. Start off simple and keep it simple until you absolutely must make it more complicated.

[tgbto]

As far as a tool for the angle setting process, I would recommend a mechanical dial caliper, rather than vernier. 

Rick,

You're right, obviously. But there's something I always found fascinating with having sub-1/10th mm precision with such a basic tool.

[Ken S]

Along with the fascination of precise instruments, we should sharpen in temperature controlled rooms and wear gloves to eliminate transferring body heat to our tools. 

Ken

(Just kidding. . .)

[tgbto]

Along with the fascination of precise instruments, we should sharpen in temperature controlled rooms and wear gloves to eliminate transferring body heat to our tools. 

Ken

(Just kidding. . .)

Such as plunging our one-yard measuring rod in a bucket of ice and water as part of approximating the speed of light on Mount Wilson ? As well we should.

[MetalPro]

Great info here - thanks for the all the suggestions.  I didn't know the MB-102 existed - thanks for that suggestion, it looks like it will cover all the front support configurations.  Got the TormekCalc software downloaded and figured out, the Supergrind2000 measurements are a little different then the preprogrammed T8 on the regular support mount but a lot different on the front mount. Couple of follow up questions:

Rick - I see the simplicity of the rubberband and support to stone distance but I don't see the 'ease of use' for this distance preprogrammed into TormekCalc, am I missing this somewhere or are you using different software?

Ken - I'm curious about the expert demonstration by Stig Reitan you witnessed, did he hone freehand or use a front support?

So for now I'll only add front support, no new wheels. Current 'good plan' is: SG250 to Sun Tiger 4000 from front then side hone with support, all with angle setting from TormekCalc; plus practice.  I still have reservations about sharpening some edge tools on this system, particularly my Japanese plane blades and mortise chisels. It seems 'disrespectful' to radius the cutting faces and not use traditional methods on these tools - do some of you feel the same way or am I strange/crazy?

Note: my basement is at standard temperature and pressure about two hours a year; an hour in the spring and an hour in the fall...

Thanks again for all the help.

[cbwx34]

...
but I don't see the 'ease of use' for this distance preprogrammed into TormekCalc, am I missing this somewhere or are you using different software?
...

"T-USB" is the measurement directly to the wheel in TormekCalc (in the column under the wheel size)...


If you want to know what the arrows are for, see this post. 

[RickKrung]

...
but I don't see the 'ease of use' for this distance preprogrammed into TormekCalc, am I missing this somewhere or are you using different software?
...

"T-USB" is the measurement directly to the wheel in TormekCalc (in the column under the wheel size)...
...snip...

TormekCalc is an amazingly detailed and excellent app, but I find it way more than I need and unless one spends the time to really figure out what is going on, way more difficult to use than I care to go through. 

There are other calculators where it is easier to find, although I could not in CB's Calcapp.  I use his older and possibly no longer available "Go Calc" app that shows USB to Wheel right on the main screen. 

Maybe CB can post an image of where to find it in an angle calculator that is much easier to use, such as Calcapp. 

Rick

[RickKrung]

Along with the fascination of precise instruments, we should sharpen in temperature controlled rooms and wear gloves to eliminate transferring body heat to our tools. 

Ken

(Just kidding. . .)

For a while, there was one here who it appeared to be close to it...

[cbwx34]

TormekCalc is an amazingly detailed and excellent app, but I find it way more than I need and unless one spends the time to really figure out what is going on, way more difficult to use than I care to go through. 

There are other calculators where it is easier to find, although I could not in CB's Calcapp.  I use his older and possibly no longer available "Go Calc" app that shows USB to Wheel right on the main screen. 

Maybe CB can post an image of where to find it in an angle calculator that is much easier to use, such as Calcapp. 

Rick

USB to Wheel is present on every relevant calculator page in Calcapp, for example...

You cannot view this attachment.

... the only difference from GoCalc is you first pick the calculator you want to use from the main menu.  The picture shows the "2 in 1 Calculator"... probably the one used the most.

[MetalPro]

T-USB is clear to me now...this explains the instructions that jvh sends out: "T USB is independent of these constants and can be used to check the settings."  I hadn't quite grasped the meaning of that till now.  The quick responses are appreciated.

[Naf]

Along with the fascination of precise instruments, we should sharpen in temperature controlled rooms and wear gloves to eliminate transferring body heat to our tools. 

Ken

(Just kidding. . .)

I feel completely worthless now.