Being new a diamond or stone wheel

[lilb93]

Hello everyone,
               I am new here and going to purchase a t-8 I like the black edition with the diamond cutter wheel. I also like the 50 year warranty. It would be good till I am 129. Being new should I just go for the regular T-8 or go diamond?  Is there a more learning curve with the diamond, or is it more easier with the stone wheel.  Thanks John

[Dan]

Hello,
I have been using the original T8 for about 6 months and I am very happy with it for chisels, planes and knives. I can't tell you about the diamond wheels though. You'll have to wait for some others to reply about that.
One thing to check is what jigs you will need. The Black edition does not come with the SE-77 jig for chisels and plane blades. The Original T8 does. If you need that jig then you will have to spend a little extra on that.

Danny

[tgbto]

Hi,

My 2 cents: I wouldn't go with the diamond unless I need to sharpen some very specific carbide tools.

The diamond wheels are more fragile, they need ACC concentrate in the water, they are less versatile than the standard stone (which you can grade coarse or fine), they might leave scratch marks. Most important to me: I like the feedback given by the SG stone way better. I also think the SG is more forgiving as you can't ruin it : if you mess up you'l just have to true it some more. All in all, you have to compare the cost of the black edition plus a DC wheel if you want to compare it to the standard T-8.

A case might be made if you don't want a hollow grind, but then you'll also have to chip in for a MB-100 multibase to use the jigs on the (flat) side of the diamond wheel.

The 50 years warranty sounds cool, but at 8 years for the standard T-8, I'd consider it more of a nice marketing stunt.

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, John. Good question.

I agree with the other two posters. I would like to split the questions into two groups, the machine and the diamond wheel.

Except for the black finish and "50th" logo, the machine is identical to the standard issue T8. (minus the TTS-50, stone grader, and SE-77). I suspect that the black edition may have a higher resale value, like any limited edition. I don't see where it has any practical advantage for sharpeners.

You may want diamond wheels at some future date. I put the highest faith in what is said in the online classes. I totally agree with the idea of starting with the
SG-250. Many of us will need no other grinding wheel. If you choose the black edition, I would recommend also purchasing an SG-250, TTS-50, and stone grader. 

Five years from now, a hundred dollars more or less won't make much difference.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[lilb93]

Thanks everyone, I will just go with the regular T-8.  So when I screw up I can repair my mistakes on a stone wheel.  I do see about everywhere there 880.00 Do they ever have sales on them?  Is one place better than another for purchasing it.  Thanks again.

[Dan]

880.00 ??

Are you in the US?

[Ken S]

Tormek has a Minimum Advertised Price policy with its dealers. Pricing should be consistent. I have not seen the price reduced, although occasionally, combination deals are made (with all dealers) whereajigor accessory is included.

My advice is to look for a dealer near you who offers excellent service. You will e dealing with them for many years as your sharpening skills grow.

Ken

[Sylwester]

Hi !

Me too agree that SG are best for start and not only. But for harder steels or carbide tools dimonds or CBN wheels are a must. I wish Tormek have CBN wheels...

But SG have few small problems:

- more mess in water tank

- diameter is changing

- grit 220 is quite coarse and 1000 is quite fine


Diamond on Black is 600 which probably is common grit for quick re-sharpening without edge redoing. Maybe Tormek could do 400-600-800 grit changing tool ?

But SG is a lot of fun


As for "50 is not worth it": I heard about "drill using sharpeners" probably in 80's from my grandfather. And this year (2023) I was looking for sharpeners and found Tormek but prices for 250 mm machines was CRAZY !   So if not 50 years of warranty I probably would not get one... But SG-250 probably would be good learning gadget. Also maybe I would be a grandfathr some day too ?

[Ken S]

We get product information from marketing people and from users. In my opinion, too much information is from sales people and not enough is from experienced users.

Let's examine the "small problems" mentioned. They are indeed small problems; however, I believe the key word is "small".

Yes, the SG will wear with use and will decrease gradually in diameter. The same is true of the tires on our vehicles, even top of the line tires. If we were to question typical Tormek users, I suspect most, including twenty year plus users, still have usable life in their original SG grinding wheels. Of course high volume sharpeners will wear their grinding wheels more quickly, just like commercial drivers will wear their tires more quickly. How many of us are really high volume sharpeners or commercial drivers?


I won't make any friends by stating my observation that most of the "water mess" is caused by poor technique. I have watched Tormek demonstrators work all day with almost no water spillage. Water is a key part of the Tormek. It keeps the tools being sharpened cool, thus preserving the temper. It also eliminates grinding dust and sparking. There is no health hazard or danger of fire in water.

The concept of grit and the use of the stone grader are not well understood. A 360 grit diamond wheel will cut faster than a 220 grit aluminum oxide wheel like the SG. Grit size is only one factor. Also, the stone grader is not just 220 and 1000 grit. Those are just convenient numbers for describing the approximate grit range. Like a light dimmer, the stone grader can produce middle grades. "600" grit is often used to describe a middle grit. This is an approximate designation.

Diamond and CBN wheels are only one layer thick. They can not be graded. As the grit material runs throughout the SG, wheel damage can be repaired and the wheel retrued.

My advice is to pay less attention to the vendors, both third party and Tormek marketing and close attention to the demonstrators on the online classes. They have access to all of the Tormek grinding wheels. They use the SG almost exclusively.

Ken

[tgbto]

Hi !

Me too agree that SG are best for start and not only. But for harder steels or carbide tools dimonds or CBN wheels are a must. I wish Tormek have CBN wheels...

For carbide tools, sure. But does the OP intend to sharpen a lot of these ? As for harder steels, like powder steels, probably as well. But most high-end kitchen knives will sharpen fine on a SG.

- grit 220 is quite coarse and 1000 is quite fine

As Ken mentioned, the stone can be graded in between. I mostly use it in this "in-between" state, I find the final state after honing suits standard vegetable knives perfectly.

So if not 50 years of warranty I probably would not get one...

If the out-of-warranty machines still sell for that high price, it might be a sign that the warranty is not that important. And if it fails after *just* thirty years, maybe you'll find it a good idea to buy the latest Tormek with the threaded USB, the EZ-lock nut, and.... the built-in FVB ^^.

[John Hancock Sr]

I looked around at the local resellers here and can get quite a bit off the wheels and accessories. I do a search in google then look at the various prices then on eBay and Amazon and then compare the prices + shipping. All of the resellers in Australia I use are reputable so have a high level of confidence in them. I did need a shaft and ordered one off Amazon for a really good price and discovered that it shipped from the US. It went missing in transit and Amazon refunded me - but that was the only instance of not using a reputable Australian supplier. I cannot speak for other countries but I would imagine that the same would apply elsewhere.

[3D Anvil]

I faced the same question when I started out with Tormek and got essentially the same advice.  I think it was good advice.  The SG stone is more forgiving than diamond or CBN wheels, and particularly so if you're using ones with sharp corners.  Those corners can do some damage if you inadvertently tilt whatever you're sharpening.  Diamon/CBN also requires a lighter touch.

One thing about the SG wheel...  Yes, you can grade it to 200 or 1000 grit, or anywhere in between, but it will always gravitate back to its native grit, which I'd guesstimate to be somewhere in the 400-600 range.

In other words, you may grade it to 200 in order to reprofile or repair an edge, but it won't stay at 200 long if you are applying firm pressure. 

[Ken S]

I agree, 3D. However, the SG gravitating back to its natural state grit is just part of the nature of the beast. Tormek has always recommended frequent use of the stone grader to maintain the 220 grit. It's really no big deal, just part of the sharpening process.

Ken

[tgbto]

In other words, you may grade it to 200 in order to reprofile or repair an edge, but it won't stay at 200 long if you are applying firm pressure.

This Tormek video is quite interesting to choose sharpening pressure according to what result we're trying to achieve. Natural grit is one thing, but how we change the surface state of the stone is another we have to take into account.

[Ken S]

We can gain a deeper understanding of the Tormek by filtering out other thinking which does not really apply. Two examples of this are high speed dry grinding and sharpening with flat bench stones. We also have to get past some long held Basic Tormek doctrine.

Tormek's online classes have been leading the enlightenment regarding using the stone grader with the SG wheel.  The long held traditional myth is that the stone grader produces only two grits, 220 and 1000.  While this two grit number idea fits our desire for precision numbers, it ignores the fact that the stone grader and SG combination can produce a spectrum of grits  from approximately 220 on the coarse end to approximately 1000 on the fine end.  These grits can be further modified be variations in grinding pressure,   as noted by tgbto.

As we expect more from our Tormeks, we reach past the point where we can be totally reliant upon our automated features. He SG has one natural grit. We are able to temporarily modify this with the stone grader. Having to refresh this modification from time to time (sometimes every minute) seems like a reasonable necessity to save the cost of another wheel or two.

Ken