Knife Angle Setter "Black Edition"

[RichColvin]

Dan,

I've used Per's angle jig and I can give it glowing comments.  


What I sharpen most often are woodturning and wood carving tools.  That is why I am such a strong advocate for the approach pioneered by the TTS-100.  And this is the approach adopted by Sheang Han (Tournevis on the Tormek forum). 

Sheang's jig, which I call the HanJig (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#HanJig), fits the few knives I sharpen quite well.  I don't really sharpen thick knives, so I've not needed to get really into using the KJ-45:  the SVM-45, -100, & -140 have always worked well for me (which goes to show how great the investment is with Tormek's products).

This same, 2-wheel approach is what drew me to Per's jig also.  I know that I need to learn how to use the new KJ jigs at some point, I just did not want to use the WM-200 AngleMaster.

Per's jig is a real hit for me.  I set the desired edge angle, and then sharpened my knife on a DF-250 diamond wheel using the KJ-45 according to the way Per's jig told me.  I honed the edge using the 3-step approach:  1) CW-220, 2) paper wheel with 5 micron diamond paste (bench grinder), and 3) paper wheel with jewelers rouge.

I don't have a BESS, but the knife is as sharp as I've ever wanted it to be.

Per did not meet my expectations:  the jig he created far exceeded them.  He has set the bar very high for the new Tormek device, and I think that is great.  Most importantly, he has made the KJ-45 a useful jig for me. 

[Dan]

Thanks for the replies.
I think I get what you mean now 

[Ken S]

"It was (in my opinion) designed for chisels, so that issue isn't there.  But there's still a question of how accurate/consistent it can be... just measure the same angle several times (even on a chisel) and the result can vary unless you're careful."

How accurate/consistent is acceptable? I have not seen a spec to clarify this. If the desired bevel angle is 25°, would 26° or 25.5° be unacceptable? As a longtime chisel user, I find the Anglemaster more than accurate enough for chisels. A chisel is not a knife. We cannot assume a situation with knives automatically carries over to chisels.

Ken

[cbwx34]

How accurate/consistent is acceptable? I have not seen a spec to clarify this. If the desired bevel angle is 25°, would 26° or 25.5° be unacceptable? As a longtime chisel user, I find the Anglemaster more than accurate enough for chisels. A chisel is not a knife. We cannot assume a situation with knives automatically carries over to chisels.

Ken

So... why'd you switch to the TTS-100? 

...
I have a suggestion for testing that your support bar and grinding wheel are parallel. Attached is the link to the Tormek TTS-100. This is the tool I use to set up my chisels and plane blades. In my opinion, it is a more advanced tool than the Anglemaster. I consider the TTS-100 and SVD-186R to be Tormek's most advanced set up and jig combination. The two small revolving metal wheels make the TTS-100 compensate automatically for wheel wear. You can even switch back and forth between the T8 and the T4 with no adjustments. I don't know why Tormek never incorporated this innovation  to chisels and plane blades. The metal wheels work better if you draw a spoke on each with a fine tipped marker.

...
I did this in 2010 and have not needed to use the Anglemaster since then to get consistent chisel and plane blade bevels.
...

Ken

[Dan]

For me with my chisels. I don't really measure/check the angle after sharpening.
To be honest, compared to my hand sharpening for eons, the results with the T8 are so good that it doesn't really make a huge difference if it is 25° or 28°.
Anyway, on any hardwood the chisels are already nowhere near so sharp after 5 minutes work so it is really somewhat 'academic'.

I generally only do my own and some friend's knives and I really don't have the inclination (pun intended  ) to get them at a particular degree. I normally follow the existing bevel. I am very happy with the results so for me it is just a bit too much to go into goniometers and the difference between a few degrees and then ideas of Bess scores etc..

Horses for courses 
If there is an easy reliable gauge or jig to set up knife angles better then that is great. To me, the new angle setter does look at first glance somewhat complicated. Maybe it is much more accurate and takes a bit more learning to use it compared to the anglemaster and that may be useful for some people. It also may not be for everyone.

Danny

[RichColvin]

I use the TTS-100 with the a 3D printed Projection Jig (https://sharpeninghandbook.info/indexJigs.html#ProjJigTTS100) to sharpen my chisels.  This makes using the SE-77 more manageable, and it makes the process much faster and easier, so I sharpen more often. 

[Dan]

OK, I thought I should do some tests to see if I can learn something from all your comments.

This is for chisels, not knives. I know this is in the knife sharpening section but it is about angles and it seems to me to apply.

So cbwx34 (if it was you that suggested it, or was it Rich??) I wanted to try the method with the Calcapp to set the angle for chisels.

It took me a bit of time to work it out but it is pretty straightforward to use - the SE-77 section at least. Maybe one day I will try with knives.
I like the idea a lot. I also managed to reduce the wheel diameter setting for the honing wheel to get the same angle for honing and it worked perfectly.

So, I decided I wanted to get a 27° angle so I did two chisels with this method and another chisel with the WM-200 AngleMaster trying to get 27° too.

The results: trying my best to measure the distances carefully with vernier calipers for the calcapp, both chisels ended up at 30°!!....

I am not sure why this happened. Obviously, there is always  possibility of human error involved here but I tried to be careful.

With the third chisel I followed the recommended method for the anglemaster to get 27° and this ended up at 29°!!

I measured the angles with a basic protractor and rulers. I havent got any more sophisticated way but it is fairly easy to see.

Not sure what to make of my results but at least I learned some things!

Danny

[cbwx34]

OK, I thought I should do some tests to see if I can learn something from all your comments.

This is for chisels, not knives. I know this is in the knife sharpening section but it is about angles and it seems to me to apply.

So cbwx34 (if it was you that suggested it, or was it Rich??) I wanted to try the method with the Calcapp to set the angle for chisels.

It took me a bit of time to work it out but it is pretty straightforward to use - the SE-77 section at least. Maybe one day I will try with knives.
I like the idea a lot. I also managed to reduce the wheel diameter setting for the honing wheel to get the same angle for honing and it worked perfectly.

So, I decided I wanted to get a 27° angle so I did two chisels with this method and another chisel with the WM-200 AngleMaster trying to get 27° too.

The results: trying my best to measure the distances carefully with vernier calipers for the calcapp, both chisels ended up at 30°!!....

I am not sure why this happened. Obviously, there is always  possibility of human error involved here but I tried to be careful.

With the third chisel I followed the recommended method for the anglemaster to get 27° and this ended up at 29°!!

I measured the angles with a basic protractor and rulers. I havent got any more sophisticated way but it is fairly easy to see.

Not sure what to make of my results but at least I learned some things!

Danny

I'm not sure if it applies, but part of the issue may be this... whether you're using the AngleMaster or the calculator, the angle it measures is at the edge, but the overall angle is actually larger (since it's on a curved surface.)  It's talked about in this thread... Setting Accurate Grinding Angle, and shown in this picture...

You cannot view this attachment.
(from this thread: https://forum.tormek.com/index.php/topic,4063.msg28224.html#msg28224)

... where users are sharpening on the Tormek, then trying to hone on a flat stone at the same angle. So if you're measuring the entire angle with a protractor, that could be the reason it doesn't match the sharpening angle.  (It's more pronounced depending on the size of the chisel.)

[Dan]

OK , thanks for the reply. Lots of useful info in the links. I am not sure if if is that or not but I think I see what you mean.
In my case, yes, I am measuring the angle with a ruler over the top and bottom of the hollow grind so I suppose the real angle near the tip is less/lower anyway. I was wrongly assuming I should just try to measure  it the same as a flat grind.
Although it is not possible for me to measure the angle just at the cutting edge (apex), it really means that the achieved results with both methods is actually pretty close to the intended 27°   

That is very useful to know. Thanks for your help.

Danny

[tgbto]

The way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?

You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?

[Perra]

The way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?

You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?

Hi
Correct👍😊

[Ken S]

The way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?

You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?

I do not disagree with this. However, it seems more steps than are necessary.

Especially with the diamond wheels, the wheel diameter should remain constant, not only with the same wheel, but also with other diamond wheels by the same manufacturer. Even with matrix wheels (SG, SB, and SJ) wheel wear is gradual. Measuring the diameter before eating up the first knife should be all that is necessary during a sharpening session. I would check wheel diameter first.

Watching the Knife Grinders videos, 140mm was a very common Projection. Even with the limited Projection range adjustment of the KJ-45, all knives of width between 45 and 50 mm (as an example) should be able to be set to a common Projection without needing individual measurement. In this scenario, with a common angle and Projection, the Distance should also remain constant. I sharpen my knives to 15degrees per side. 15 and perhaps 12° should suffice for most knives.

Some knives may require more measurement; however, the majority of usual knives should fall within these parameters.

Ken

[cbwx34]

The way I understand Perra's jig, it could also be used to adjust the projection distance for a given angle, right ?

You set the first knife's projection distance, adjust wheel size, then USB height to match the angle, then use the jig as a stop to set the projection distance ?

I do not disagree with this. However, it seems more steps than are necessary.

Especially with the diamond wheels, the wheel diameter should remain constant, not only with the same wheel, but also with other diamond wheels by the same manufacturer. Even with matrix wheels (SG, SB, and SJ) wheel wear is gradual. Measuring the diameter before eating up the first knife should be all that is necessary during a sharpening session. I would check wheel diameter first.

Watching the Knife Grinders videos, 140mm was a very common Projection. Even with the limited Projection range adjustment of the KJ-45, all knives of width between 45 and 50 mm (as an example) should be able to be set to a common Projection without needing individual measurement. In this scenario, with a common angle and Projection, the Distance should also remain constant. I sharpen my knives to 15degrees per side. 15 and perhaps 12° should suffice for most knives.

Some knives may require more measurement; however, the majority of usual knives should fall within these parameters.

Ken

That's what they're doing... setting everything up with the first knife, then using that setup to set the Projection Distance of the subsequent knives.

[Ken S]

CB,

I must have inadvertently overlooked that. I remember the Knife Grinders videos showing knife set ups. I always thought the set up was ideal for one knife, but missing the link that the entire set up procedure was not necessary for multiple knives.

I understand that as a teaching video, this approach makes sense.

Ken

[cbwx34]

CB,

I must have inadvertently overlooked that. I remember the Knife Grinders videos showing knife set ups. I always thought the set up was ideal for one knife, but missing the link that the entire set up procedure was not necessary for multiple knives.

I understand that as a teaching video, this approach makes sense.

Ken

I don't mean the video, but what they're doing with Perra's Jig.