Beginner Sharpening Problems

[RodC]

I got a T-4 recently and have been using it to sharpen woodcarving chisels.  My T-4 has the SG-200 stone.  I am using the SVS-38 jig.  I am sharpening Pfeil flat woodcarving chisels (#1 x 18 mm).  It has been taking me a long time to sharpen a chisel - about 40 minutes or so.  Note that a woodcarving chisel has a double bevel - the same bevel on each side.  So you are doing twice the sharpening work when compared to a regular wood chisel.  After reading on the forum, I see that there is a learning curve and I am trying get the process right.

When I see the various videos demonstrating the Tormek sharpening process, I hardly see any swarf at all on the wheel.  In contrast here's what I see: First I clean the wheel of swarf if needed by using the coarse side of the stone grader for as long as it takes - a lot longer than the 30 seconds that the manual says - I probably take at least 60 seconds, applying heavy pressure.  Then I set the grinding angle using the magic marker method.  Next, I proceed to grind the bevel angle with the coarse grit.  The wheel almost immediately starts showing streaks of swarf.  These build up as I keep sharpening with the coarse grit.  It takes around 5 - 10 minutes per side to get the coarse sharpening done.  Is this normal?  Should I stop and periodically remove the swarf with the stone grader?  You are supposed to use the horizontal USB position with the SVS-38, but the recommendation is to use the vertical position for the stone grader - I guess to deliver more pressure onto the stone.  Does this matter?  I can't see moving the USB when in the middle of a sharpening session.

When I transition to fine sharpening, I use the stone grader long enough to remove the swarf - as already said, this is a lot longer than 30 seconds of heavy pressure.  The fine sharpening takes awhile, too - maybe 5 minutes per side, but I do not usually see any swarf on the stone during this step.

Note that I complete one face of the chisel, doing the coarse and fine sharpening, before removing it from the SVS-38 to do the opposite.  So I am using the stone grader 4 times per chisel.

I have tried some things to minimize the swarf problem, since I suspect that it is slowing down the sharpening process. I move the chisel across the stone when sharpening to try to use the whole stone and possibly distribute the swarf.  I try to keep the water reservoir clean.  I empty it when I am done sharpening and I clean it out when moving from coarse to fine sharpening.  These things may have helped some in reducing the time it takes to sharpen, but I still wonder what is going on and what I can do to improve things.

Any insights would be appreciated.   

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Rod.

My first thought is, are you using the SG-200 grinding wheel or the SJ-200 wheel? The SJ-200 is a 4000 grit wheel designed for polishing rather than sharpening. I once watched half of a 42 minute long you tube of a guy trying to sharpen an almost sharp kitchen knife with an SJ. It was painful to watch, like watching paint dry.

The SJ 4000 grit wheel should only be used after the edge is already sharp to polish out grinding scratches. Also, it is not designed to be used with the stone grader.

Woodcarving tools are made of carbon steel. If they were made of a harder "supersteel" alloy, they would be very difficult to sharpen. They are generally used with fairly soft wood and either pushed with hand pressure or lightly tapped with a small mallet. You can feel when they first start to lose their keen edge and get harder to push. Unless the edge is damaged or is very dull, using the SG graded somewhat fine should sharpen them. One minute should see the job almost completed.

If this is not your problem, please post again. We will get past this.

Ken

[tgbto]

Hi Rod,

You're right, it takes twice as many operations, but hopefully each one lasts half as long as it would on a single-beveled chisel the same thickness...

Among the videos you've watched, have you come across the recent one on sharpening pressure ? There is a very interesting discussion around 20 minutes on how a high pressure can be counterproductive when you have just graded the stone coarse. And also around 25' on how lessening the pressure just a bit might increase the sharpening speed.

The SG wheel should not collect too much metal as it usually goes with the water and then is collected by the magnet in the trough, especially with not too much pressure.

And as far as the stone grader is concerned, you can apply it freehand or with the usb in the horizontal position, it shouldn't be too much of an issue.

If as Ken suggests you're using the SJ, then indeed it will collect metal long before it sharpens your tools, and you will probably reduce it to a pebble before you've sharpened much. But if you're using the SG stone, grading it is not so much about removing metal than it is about changing the grit, and therefore the way pressure is applied to the blade.

IF TL/DR: maybe try applying less pressure with the chisel.

Cheers,

Nick.

[RickKrung]

If you like using the USB in the vertical position for using the stone grader, and don't like moving the one you have from the horizontal position, an easy solution is to get a second USB.  I have five or six, one being the extended length one. 

Also, I think we should take RodC at his word.  He has been very clear and succinct.  He has the SG-200 stone.  He only just got the T4 and specifically mentioned the "SG" wheel and said nothing about having bought any other wheel, let alone the SJ wheel. 

RodC, if you come to the point where you really don't like how long it is taking and want a coarser wheel to speed things up, one of the easiest and cheapest ways is to mount a traditional bench grinder stone.  There has been a good bit of discussion of this on this forum.  KenS first mentioned it, I believe, and this is what I did quite a while ago.  Norton 3X wheels work very well, 60 or 80 grit.  They are 8" diameter, so would fit the T4 nicely.  I have a T8, so had to significantly change the USB when using it, but it was worth it.  I subsequently was gifted a 10" traditional grindstone, but anything like this will always be a different diameter from your other wheels, so changing the USB is a given (until you get into fixed diameter wheels like diamond and CBN).

Mounting a traditional grindstone on the T4/T7/8 requires a shaft bushing to adapt the usual 1" bore to the 12mm shaft and some flange bushings.  Ken used PVC pipe, drilled out to 12mm and fender washers.  Because I have means, I machined these, bushing from SS, flange washers from aluminum.  These wheels are trued using the same Tormek Truing Tools. 

I believe there may be adapter bushings available, but I don't know where. Someone posted to the forum about this.  I've included a photo that I believe was from that thread. 

If you want to keep a USB setting, even though it the USB needs to be removed, you can add another Micro-Adjust nut, to serve as a lock nut, preserving the setting.  If, by chance, an alternative setting were further down the threaded shaft, a third Micro-Adjust nut could be used for that setting and removed when returning to the fixed setting.  Seems unlikely if want to set the USB very close to the wheel, as you would for using the stone grader, but conceptually it could happen. 

Rick

[Ken S]

Rick,

I agree with your thoughts. However, We have not addressed the real issue. Sharpening a carving chisel should not take forty minutes. While accepting the possibility that something may be defective with Rod's T4, it seems strange to me that I do not remember similar complaints. If there was indeed a design flaw with the T4, we should have received hundreds of posts.

The T4 has an eight year warranty. This really needs to be referred to support.
(support@tormek.se). I would not spend any money for other equipment or wheels until support settles the issue.

Ken

[RodC]

Thanks guys for the replies.  I am using the SG-200 stone.  One thing that I just thought of - the T-4 water trough does not have a magnet to collect the swarf.  Apparently the T-8's does.  That could be an issue, and I can easily address that.  Looking over past posts, it looks like a 3/4" super magnet glued to the outside back vertical wall would help with this issue.  Easy enough to try.  I'll probably tape it on at first, then maybe use "Goop" as one post suggested.

Another thing I should do is try sharpening a standard wood chisel - I have some Irwin/Marples Blue chisels as discussed in the Beginner's Guide in this forum.  That would let me do an apples-to-apples comparison with what experienced operator's results are.

It seems to me that the swarf is clogging the surface of the stone, possibly reducing its cutting effectiveness significantly.  And I need to address that.  Does this seem likely?

I may have other issues that I need to pay attention to and adjust, but the swarf issue seems primary to me.

[RickKrung]

Thanks guys for the replies.  I am using the SG-200 stone.  One thing that I just thought of - the T-4 water trough does not have a magnet to collect the swarf.  Apparently the T-8's does.  That could be an issue, and I can easily address that.  Looking over past posts, it looks like a 3/4" super magnet glued to the outside back vertical wall would help with this issue.  Easy enough to try.  I'll probably tape it on at first, then maybe use "Goop" as one post suggested.
...snap...

Consider not permanently affixing the magnet to the trough.  I'm not sure how the T8 trough does it, but the magnet sticks itself to the tray and is easily removed when you are dumping out the water and want to also dump out the metal shavings.  Without the magnet in place, the shavings almost wash out with the water.  If the magnet is not removable, you'll have to firmly wipe the shavings away and likely won't get it all. 

Rick

[Ken S]

Rod,

Before Tormek introduced the Advanced Water Trough for the T7, many of us attached magnets to our water troughs. Some used epoxy. Some, including me, used vinyl electrical tape. We still do that with the T4. Wiping out the swarf (abrasive and steel) never seemed to be a problem.

I don't think your problem is swarf. I never sharpened carving chisels; however, bench chisels with the SG shouldn't take more than a few minutes. Chisels just off sharp should be quick touch ups.

Do not lose patience. we will get to the bottom of this issue.

Ken

[RichColvin]

Rod,

Unless you're reshaping the edge, it should not take 40 minutes to sharpen any edge.  I recommend that you check out the videos at the bottom of this web page:  https://sharpeninghandbook.info/WW-Chisels-Carving.html.

Rich

[sharpening_weasel]

@tgbto

An interesting video! In my experience I've actually found the opposite to be true. My setup is a T8 with SG and SJ. I use heavy pressure on the SG for heavily worn chisel edges that I need to clean up fast, fine tune and square the edge, and then move on to the SJ. The whole process probably takes me about eight minutes from beater demolition chisel full of dents, rolls, and nicks to razor sharp mirror polish. I've found this (for me at least) results in less swarf buildup, and actually erodes the stone a bit too, revealing fresh, sharper cutting grains in the stone. That's my theory at least.

And this is what I love about this forum- the differing ideas! That's where the learning starts.

Cheers and happy sharpening!

[RLGL]

Regarding the magnet for a T-4, I 3Dprinted a tab that hangs on the end of the water trough and used super glue to fasten a rare earth magnet in a recess. Quick and dirty way to solve the issue.

[Ken S]

Regarding the magnet for a T-4, I 3Dprinted a tab that hangs on the end of the water trough and used super glue to fasten a rare earth magnet in a recess. Quick and dirty way to solve the issue.

Interesting idea. My one suggestion would be to tape on a magnet temporarily. Live with it for a few sharpening sessions to make sure you sure you like the placement.

I think 3D printing will have an increasingly prominent role with Tormek accessories.

Ken

[WimSpi]

I use a powerful magnet on a string. With that I "fish" through the water tank after grinding, with a small plastic bag around it. After 'fishing,' I turn the plastic bag back so that the metal residue is in the bag and I throw that away. Work simple and clean.

[RodC]

Here is an update on my Tormek sharpening experiences.
 
I can now do a pretty good job of doing the initial coarse grinding. I looked at the sharpening video that one of the members suggested (thanks!) where the Tormek rep spent some time discussing the use of the stone grader.  He mentioned using the edge of the coarse side instead of the face.  I now do this and the coarse grinding goes a lot faster.

My problem now is that the fine sharpening stage is slower than it should be.  I think I am prepping the stone with the grader correctly.  First I empty and refill the water bath (I am suspecting that floating coarse grit might otherwise contaminate the fine grinding).  Then I use the edge of the fine side of the grader, then switch to the face.  I probably do about 20-30 seconds of each, or about a minute total.  I feel the stone to check to see if it feels completely smooth.  Then proceed to sharpen.  I work at it for about 20 minutes and get so-so results.  I still have some scratches that I don't get out.

Things I have tried:
I added a magnet taped to the outside of the T-4 tray.  This does collect swarf.  Not sure if it actually helps with the problems I have been having.

I lighten up my pressure on the chisel towards the end of the coarse grinding.  The idea is to try to have less deep grooves in the chisel in preparation for the fine sharpening.

I am no longer sliding the chisel back and forth across the stone.  I am sharpening carving chisels and am using the SVS-38, and the manual says to NOT move the chisel.  This is because this jig does not have two points of contact with the USB like the SE-77.  IMHO it is too easy to slightly mis-align the chisel face if you move it around    I think this has helped somewhat.

Questions:
Do you think I am prepping the stone for fine sharpening correctly?

Are the fine sharpening results I am expecting realistic?  I am used to sharpening woodworking chisels on water stones with a Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen jig.  I am expecting the sharpening results to look similar to what a 1000 grit water stone produces.  That means a dull mirror-ish finish with no visible scratches.  I switched to the Tormek for carving chisels since they have double bevels, with each bevel about 11 degrees (about 22 degrees total bevel angle).  This is too shallow for the jigs I use with the waterstones.

Thanks in advance for any insights.
   
               

[Ken S]

Rod,

You are making progress, not there yet, but going in the right direction. The grinding wheel graded coarse should do "the heavy lifting". Grading it fine should reduce, but not eliminate the scratches. This stage should not take much time. You don't mention using the leather honing wheel. That's where the real polishing happens. After the leather honing wheel, you should have very few scratches.

How do your chisels cut after you sharpen them?

Ken