Introduction and first post

[ozhunter]

Hello everyone. I thought I would do an introduction post and show my attempts at sharpening in one go.

I'm a farmer from Central NSW, Australia. I've always struggled to get a knife sharp.

I've owned a T7 Tormek for about 10 years that I use to sharpen turning tools, plane irons and chisels with a good degree of success.

About 18 months ago, while trying to work out how to use the knife jig, I stumbled across the Knife Grinders Youtube channel, which proved to be an excellent learning tool. Vadim was very giving with his time and advice. My sympathies to his family on his passing.

I got a couple of knives sharper than I had ever achieved before, but all the usual stuff got in the way, and I never really pursued it further, until now. I discovered this forum which has proved very helpful.

I know there is some controversy surrounding the BESS system, but for better or worse I have one.

Attached are pre and post cheap(very) USB microscope pictures of the knife I sharpened tonight with a 12° per side edge. The knife is nothing special. It doesn't even have a brand on it. Had it in the kitchen for years.

Prior to any sharpening, I got an average BESS reading of 749

After 5 passes each side on a Tormek very fine diamond wheel, and 3 passes each side on the Tormek leather wheel with Tormek honing paste, I got an average BESS reading of 294.

After 5 strokes per side on a plain Kangaroo tail strop, I got an average BESS reading of 112.

I'm very pleased with the result. All that is required now is to train SWMBO no to use the glass cutting board.

I'm sure I'll pick up some more tricks off the forum as time goes on.

[BeSharp]

Congrats and welcome! People here are very friendly, I have learned a lot from them too. Yes, a strop is amazing.

[John_B]

Welcome to the forum Adam.

With some practice you should be able to achieve BESS 100 or better with just the standard setup. Honing at a precise angle on the leather wheel is key to achieving a really sharp blade. I envy your kangaroo strop.

[RickKrung]

...snip...
Attached are pre and post cheap(very) USB microscope pictures of the knife I sharpened tonight with a 12° per side edge. The knife is nothing special. It doesn't even have a brand on it. Had it in the kitchen for years.

Prior to any sharpening, I got an average BESS reading of 749

After 5 passes each side on a Tormek very fine diamond wheel, and 3 passes each side on the Tormek leather wheel with Tormek honing paste, I got an average BESS reading of 294.

After 5 strokes per side on a plain Kangaroo tail strop, I got an average BESS reading of 112.

I'm very pleased with the result. All that is required now is to train SWMBO no to use the glass cutting board.

I'm sure I'll pick up some more tricks off the forum as time goes on.

Welcome to the forum.  It sounds like you are well on you way.  If you've discovered KG's YT videos, have you also studied material on the general website?  An immense treasure trove of info there, almost too muck, one could become lost in options/methods. 

112 BESS is pretty good, but the jump from 294 after deburring on the leather wheel to stropping on the tail seems huge.  I think you may want to focus a bit more on the "burr".  Creating it, removing it.  You didn't say what other grinding occurred prior to the diamond DE wheel.  It is critical to bring both bevels to a clean apex, creating a positively discern-able burr.  I would not want to be trying that with just the DE wheel.  This of course depends on how dull the edge is to begin with.  I prefer to use coarser wheels to be sure I reach the apex, remove nicks, etc. and raise a serious burr, then work it down with successively finer grinding/polishing/deburring steps.  Vadim showed us through his work how the angle of honing is very important for deburring, whether on the stock honing wheels or other wheels such as paper and felt.  Have you read his book on deburring?  I have never been proficient at freehand honing; rather I find the angle control, increasing the angle slightly over the grinding angle to be superb at removing the burr.  How are you doing the deburring? 

I find magnification of the apex to be extremely helpful.  I use a 60X hand microscope to eyeball the entire length of the apex, from both sides.  I'm not sure how your cheap USB camera does at extreme magnification, but if the images you attached are it, that would not be adequate for me.  I use a Kingmas 60X "currency detecting" microscope.  Do a search on the term "Kingmas" and you can read prior posts on this, including links of where to get them.  This hand microscope is an "essential" tool for me. 

Please keep us informed of your progress. 

Rick

[ozhunter]

Thanks for the encouragement. Forums like this are a trove of useful information

Welcome to the forum.  It sounds like you are well on you way.  If you've discovered KG's YT videos, have you also studied material on the general website?  An immense treasure trove of info there, almost too muck, one could become lost in options/methods.

There is a lot to digest, that's for sure

112 BESS is pretty good, but the jump from 294 after deburring on the leather wheel to stropping on the tail seems huge.  I think you may want to focus a bit more on the "burr".  Creating it, removing it.  You didn't say what other grinding occurred prior to the diamond DE wheel.

There was no grinding prior to the DE wheel. There was a small burr prior to honing.

Vadim showed us through his work how the angle of honing is very important for deburring, whether on the stock honing wheels or other wheels such as paper and felt.  Have you read his book on deburring?  I have never been proficient at freehand honing; rather I find the angle control, increasing the angle slightly over the grinding angle to be superb at removing the burr.  How are you doing the deburring?

Yes,  I have his book. I used his FVB and applet to set and control the angles. I understood from what I have read, from a lot of sources, that if all you have for sharpening is a Tormek with grinding wheel and leather wheel, you should stick to the sharpening angle. Other wise, due to differences in the bevel going from 250mm wheel to 215, there is a real and present risk of either rolling the edge, or only honing the shoulder of the bevel, so on the leather wheel, i stuck to the grinding angle.

I find magnification of the apex to be extremely helpful.  I use a 60X hand microscope to eyeball the entire length of the apex, from both sides.  I'm not sure how your cheap USB camera does at extreme magnification, but if the images you attached are it, that would not be adequate for me.  I use a Kingmas 60X "currency detecting" microscope.  Do a search on the term "Kingmas" and you can read prior posts on this, including links of where to get them.  This hand microscope is an "essential" tool for me.

That's as good as mine gets, like I said it's very cheap. I've looked at the Kingmas, and have a few bits and pieces winging their to Australia, to hopefully help with the process.

Out of interest, my brother bought home most of a deer from a recent hunting trip. We processed it for freezing yesterday. Before we started, I sharpened a SWIBO boning knife and got two BESS readings in the low 70's, using the exact same approach as I detailed above.

[RickKrung]

...snip...
Yes,  I have his book. I used his FVB and applet to set and control the angles. I understood from what I have read, from a lot of sources, that if all you have for sharpening is a Tormek with grinding wheel and leather wheel, you should stick to the sharpening angle. Other wise, due to differences in the bevel going from 250mm wheel to 215, there is a real and present risk of either rolling the edge, or only honing the shoulder of the bevel, so on the leather wheel, i stuck to the grinding angle.

Interesting.  I must have missed that one.  Could you reference that source here, please?  Whether using either honing wheel (leather or composite) or my 10" rock hard felt wheel, I use an angle app to set the angle in that 0.5-2 deg. higher angle for all knives, depending on the type of steel.  Haven't run into issues with the edge rolling, etc. However, I do use a Tormek SJ wheel, at the sharpening angle first, so that may a significant difference. 

Out of interest, my brother bought home most of a deer from a recent hunting trip. We processed it for freezing yesterday. Before we started, I sharpened a SWIBO boning knife and got two BESS readings in the low 70's, using the exact same approach as I detailed above.

Perhaps the boning knife is a different (better) steel and takes a better edge.  Or, maybe your technique is developing.  Or both.  Or chance. 

Rick

[ozhunter]

Rick, Vadim's video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UckPmizllk0 is what I was referring to in relation to not changing the angle from grinding wheel to leather wheel. I've read/seen it elsewhere, but can't pinpoint where.

May be the SJ wheel is a point of difference. I don't know enough about it to speculate.

The knife in my first post was a non-descript knife with no makers name (if it was ever there, it's long gone) EDIT: Turns out it is a Victorinox knife. I was playing around in different light and you can barely make out the model number.

I think the steel quality is a factor. Better technique? Definitely, you don't get better at something by only doing it once in a blue moon. In my former life, we trained that about 2000 repetitions of an action is required before you do it without thinking about it.

Chance? I'm not sure. Last night and this morning I sharpened two more knives. A 10" Victorinox chefs knife and a Wiltshire kitchen knife. I got around 70 BESS with the Victorinox (more long knife practice required to build muscle memory) and 60 BESS with the Wiltshire. Using the technique described in my first post.

Considering how early in my Tormek knife sharpening journey I am, I'm very pleased with the results.

[cbwx34]

I think you're misinterpreting that you need to keep the same angle for honing.  Depends on the steel.  Lower end steels typically benefit from honing at a higher angle.  Like Rick pointed out, (good catch BTW) it's probably why you're seeing such a jump in BESS scores from the honing wheel to the strop.  (But since you have the strop, maybe not a big deal?) 

I'd experiment a bit, see if you notice a difference... especially in actual use.

[RickKrung]

I looked at the video.  He certainly does use the same angle for honing.  However, I did not find where he says WHY he used the same angle.  I watched all of the video in the honing phase and scanned the grinding phase for mention of his rationale for the angles used.  Didn't find it.  Perhaps it is in some of the other material.  I do like the video as it shows that the stock Tormek system is fully capable of producing very sharp edges, dispelling the myth that specialty grinding wheels and honing methods are necessary. 

The video is from June 2018, prior to Vadim's release of his deburring book where he goes into significant detail about the types of burrs and why different angles are needed for different types of steels.  He does discuss using the same angle for honing as grinding, but mostly in regard to the harder steels (negative burrs).  The first "version" of his deburring book that I have is actually an article he published on his web site, ~Oct. 2018.  I have two versions of his actual book, 4th Oct. 2019 and 5th June 2020 (I know I had earlier versions as I've followed it all along, must have just dumped the earlier ones).  All of these discuss the use of various angles higher than the grinding angle depending on the type of steel.  My assessment is that the video does not provide a reason for use of the same angle and appears to me to be superseded by his later works in these versions of his deburring book. 

In a way, it does not really matter.  You are getting good results using the methods you use and you seem satisfied.  As CB suggests, I think that you should try some other honing angles based on steel types and see how your results vary.  I would also try initially honing at the same angle and then reset the angle slightly higher and do a second stage of honing.  Although the grit would be the same, it may provide some polishing benefit and might even result in more sharpness directly from honing before taking it to the hanging strop. 

Rick

[3D Anvil]

Yeah, I don't see any logic in maintaining the same angle due to differences in wheel diameter.  In fact, the only benefit to using identical wheel diameters would come from using identical angles, so that the curvature of the bevels would be the same.  As soon as you raise the grind angle, the wheel diameter effectively becomes irrelevant because you can't match the bevel curvature if you change the angle.

[cbwx34]

...
Other wise, due to differences in the bevel going from 250mm wheel to 215, there is a real and present risk of either rolling the edge, or only honing the shoulder of the bevel, so on the leather wheel, i stuck to the grinding angle.
...

I didn't notice this before... but going from a larger to smaller wheel, you won't hone the shoulder.  Forum member Gilles has a calculator and forum thread that addresses this...  https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=4326.0

Theoretically, "rolling the edge" can occur at any angle, but that is avoided with technique (and the fact that the leather wheel is pretty hard). 

[ozhunter]

Thanks for the information and insight. I'm only early in the learning curve of knife sharpening on the Tormek.

There is much to take in and learn. I have found with wood working and turning, if you ask three people how something should be done and you'll get at least two different methods of getting to the same result. It boils down to what works best for you, with what you have and what you can afford to have.

What I know for sure is, even at this point, I have never been able to get a knife as sharp as I can now.

I have been using the Knife Grinders apps from the start.

I have bit of a plan on which way I want to go equipment wise, and the rest is just time and practice.

In due course, I'm going to give one of the roo shooters here a sharpened knife to see how my edge stands up in the real world.

Cheers