How much time to sharpen a high end knife?

[Ken S]

How much time to sharpen a very high end knife?

I just watched Knife Grinders' latest video. As usual, it was very informative and thorough. Vadim demonstrated the Rolls Royce technique of knife sharpening he has pioneered.

I have read many questions concerned with how much time is required to sharpen a typical knife. I believe the reason for many of these questions is often wanting to sense how much to charge and how much profit can be made. These are legitimate questions. The answers are often complex. Is the knife damaged or merely dull? What steel is used in the blade?

This video showed a very skilled sharpener thoroughly sharpening one high end knife. The entire process took half an hour. Admittedly this process is more involved than sharpening a typical quality kitchen knife or a lower quality knife. However, I see many new sharpeners wanting to gear up for the full Knife Grinders treatment. This is commendable, especially for high end sharpeners and enthusiastic amateur sharpeners. My questions are:
Are your customers willing to pay a fair price for a half hour to sharpen one knife?
Will your sharpening volume allow devoting that much time to one knife?
Are you willing to spend this much time to sharpen a knife?

I highly recommend this video.

Ken

https://youtu.be/LpkAHJ906BI

[John_B]

Ken, these are good questions. I have a limited customer base and my goal is to make a profit to offset some of my other hobby costs. I am retired so my time is pretty much my own and sharpening time is not a big concern. That being said I would not devote 30 minutes to one knife. Most of my customers bring around 6-8 knives so this would easily eat up more than half a day. Based on Vadim's sharpening chart I would say my knives are around 100 BESS using the SG-250 and leather wheel with Tormek paste. When I added the FVB some time back I saw a definite increase in sharpness. For my personal knives I added a leather wheel with 1 micron diamond spray. I see the increase in sharpness when I use this as a final hone. All of my customers are happy with the sharpness I provide with the standard Tormek setup. All they have to judge sharpness is a memory of how the knife performed when new. I know I am exceeding this.

While I am sure there are some that demand Vadim's level of sharpening, however, I have yet to encounter one. We must also realize that Vadim has a system down to a science and most of us would be challenged to do what he does in 30 minutes. Another consideration is the investment in grinding wheels, honing wheels, support bars etc. This cost has to be recovered if you want to make a real profit. If you spent enough to have Vadim's setup Iwould imagine a BESS tester would be required.

[Ken S]

Good thoughts, John.

When I mentioned new sharpeners, I certainly not not mean you. (We both know that.) You have enough experience to both understand Vadim's technique and evaluate what parts of it fit your customers' expectations and fit into your cost/profit structure. I appreciate the way Vadim has also shown (on a different video) how to achieve very good sharpness with more typical kitchen knives using the SG-250 and leather honing wheel with PA-70.

Some may not remember that among the Knife Grinders clientele (and research subjects) are some of the meat packing plants in Sydney. He sharpens more than expensive folder knives. I have followed Vadim's remarkable progress since he first joined the forum. He is the rare combination of an educated scientific researcher and a dedicated Tormek sharpener. Whether or not we sharpen supersteel knives, we have all benefitted from his work.

Ken

[Hogdog6]

I've benefited greatly from Vadim his knowledge IMHO is second to none and I do miss him on this forum, although I respect his reason for leaving it.
Thank you Ken for posting the link always a thrill to watch him do his magic.

[brute]

Hi Ken: It takes me over an hour, to sharpen a quality steel knife, for low Bess numbers. I have 2 tormek T8s, many leather honing wheels, 10" felt wheels for deburring, & high speed 10" paper wheel system, for deburring. To think you can sharpen quickly is wrong. It takes time to set up for grinding and time for FVB (honing & deburring). This process is not for making money. Hope this helps. 

[BeSharp]

Hi Ken: It takes me over an hour, to sharpen a quality steel knife, for low Bess numbers. I have 2 tormek T8s, many leather honing wheels, 10" felt wheels for deburring, & high speed 10" paper wheel system, for deburring. To think you can sharpen quickly is wrong. It takes time to set up for grinding and time for FVB (honing & deburring). This process is not for making money. Hope this helps.

I have a similar setup, but for making money. I timed myself lastweek. Time varied from 7 minutes (previous customer; resharpen at same angle) to 9 minutes (very dull). I estimated 10 minutes per knife, so it seems about right. Getting BESS numbers 50-100.

[John_B]

Some things I do to speed up my sharpening with repeat customer's knives; I keep notes for each sharpening where I record a little data to speed up repeat sharpening sessions including edge angle, honing angle, USB height for both sharpening and honing and jig extension length. Where possible I use the same jig setting for all knives. I have not had anyone ask to change the sharpening angle for their knives. I have done this on some of my knives and here is where I wish for a coarser stone or belt system. Doing this makes the sharpening time fairly quick (never timed it). If I was going to do additional honing to get the knives even sharper I would do the same things for additional wheel setups.

[Mitch]

I'm currently between 30 and 60 minutes, up to 90 for a real problem knife (a bent one caused me headaches today). However for reference (I'm sure the experienced will know exactly where I'm at) - I'm still working to dial in lift vs. pivot, making plenty of time costing mistakes (not refreshing the 220 grit grading on the SG enough, erroneously thinking I'm sharp enough to go to 1000, grind pressure mistakes, etc.), sharpened around 25 knives total so far on the Tormek. Aiming for this to be my primary income in the future but still at the training stage. Working one knife at a time at getting from "Sharp but average looking" to "Sharp and pretty". Atleast every knife teaches you something new!

I knocked out a beautiful 7" Damascus knife in under 30 minutes last night that I used in this video: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HygUpzC3ieu4c71cA - then a cheap Chef's starter knife took me 90 minutes to work through a really deep chip, since it had a bend a few inches from the heel.

Customers at the kitchen I've just dropped a bundle back to are over the moon, but it's going to be a long time before I'm entirely happy with a knife I sharpen. Still, gives you something to work toward.

[John_B]

If I was faced with chipped knives and wanted to keep my time down I would invest in a belt system or coarse diamond or CBN wheels.

Fixing a chipped knife on my FG-250 wheel tales quite a while depending on how bad the chip is.

[Mitch]

Agree - it took way too long to be profitable (not gonna sweat that as a beginner, any time the knife touches down on the wheel, I'm learning). Last time I spoke with my guy at the Tormek supplier, he suggested the Tormek Diamond Fine wheel for initial beveling and removing chips quickly. That's where I'll likely go unless I find a better suggestion on this board.

[RickKrung]

I am truly surprised on that recommendation for the Tormek diamond Fine (DF) for initial beveling and chip removal.  I found that even the coarse Tormek diamond (DC) was not aggressive enough, so when for some non-Tormek alternatives. 

Rick

[Mitch]

Interesting.. I've used the diamond stones on the KME and it wasn't until I bought their 80 grit "The Beast" stone that I was able to quickly put a new bevel on.. even then it wasn't as aggressive as you'd think. What diamond or CBN wheel (Tormek or other) would you pick that makes a sensible transition into the SG-250 graded at 220?

[cbwx34]

I am truly surprised on that recommendation for the Tormek diamond Fine (DF) for initial beveling and chip removal.  I found that even the coarse Tormek diamond (DC) was not aggressive enough, so when for some non-Tormek alternatives. 

Rick

It's what happens when you take advice from a salesperson

But yeah, I agree, I've used the fine just to sharpen, and it isn't very fast.  I wouldn't recommend it for this either.

There's a lengthy thread on this topic....  "Diamond wheels vs grind stones"

[Ken S]

I am not surprised by the salesperson's recommendation. It is in line with Tormek's long held philosophy. For most of the history of Tormek, they were a one grinding wheel does all company. This fit the high carbon steel tools in general use. Steels have changed, as have grinding wheels; however, the preference for a universal wheel still lingers. Notice in the online classes how whenever knives or chisels are sharpened the SG-250 is almost always chosen. There is good reason for this. Aluminium oxide is designed for high carbon steel. With the stone grader, the grit is variable. Unlike diamond wheels, the SG is very forgiving with rough treatment.

All of this being said, the SG-250 is not quite a universal wheel. It sharpens and hones well. It reshapes very slowly. The DF-250 is roughly equivalent in diamond. It leaves a good finish and cuts reasonably fast. The DC-250 removes metal more quickly, but does not leave as smooth finish. To do both functions efficiently, you really need two wheels.

[cbwx34]

I am not surprised by the salesperson's recommendation. It is in line with Tormek's long held philosophy. For most of the history of Tormek, they were a one grinding wheel does all company. This fit the high carbon steel tools in general use. Steels have changed, as have grinding wheels; however, the preference for a universal wheel still lingers. Notice in the online classes how whenever knives or chisels are sharpened the SG-250 is almost always chosen. There is good reason for this. Aluminium oxide is designed for high carbon steel. With the stone grader, the grit is variable. Unlike diamond wheels, the SG is very forgiving with rough treatment.

All of this being said, the SG-250 is not quite a universal wheel. It sharpens and hones well. It reshapes very slowly. The DF-250 is roughly equivalent in diamond. It leaves a good finish and cuts reasonably fast. The DC-250 removes metal more quickly, but does not leave as smooth finish. To do both functions efficiently, you really need two wheels.

Grind a few damaged knives, or put an initial bevel on one... I'll bet your surprise level will go up.

Obviously, Tormek's "long held philosophy" doesn't really apply to the diamond wheels... as you stated, you need more than one to do the job.

(My "salesperson" comment was a bit tongue in cheek).