New Stone or new Tormek?

[Brad I]

Hi all,

I've been a Tormek T-3 owner for the past 14 years or so.  I have many Tormek accessories for wood turning, knife and chisel sharpening. 

I don't use the Tormek as much as my manual sharpeners due to the time required to set up jigs and whatnot.  I also have a problem where my knife bevels can end up wavy -which is very annoying.

But when I do use it, It's going for long periods.  I make specialty carving knives every now and again and rebuild knives.

I've probably gone through 3 grinding wheels in that time.  It's time for me to look at another stone.  Or I could put that money toward an upgrade to the T-8.  I am wondering if jig set up is easier and quicker on a T-8 compared to the T-3.  Also does the bigger stone prevent wavy knife edges?  Any other thoughts on what might convince me to pull the trigger on the upgrade? 

Wavy edge example attached. 

[jeffs55]

I never thought I would say this but if you are perfectly happy with the T3 and its time of use restrictioins, get a T4. The T3 was never built for continuous use and had a 30 minute or less time limit on continuous use. This was based on the fact that it had a plastic frame. The T4 has a metal frame and although it is not continuous duty rated like a T8, it does not have the limitations of the T3. The T3 retails for $415 on Amazon and the T8 $729 both are the basic set up. If it was me, I would get the T8 as I try to never get less of something. Check out my motto, "you can use less of more but you cannot make more of less". ONLY if you are completely happy with the T3 would I even suggest the T4 but if you are, then there is a $314 difference that will buy you a couple of T4 stones down the road. Oh yeah, that edge problem likely stems from a well used stone that needs truing or either you are not moving the blade nearly enough across the stone as it turns. Even a used stone out of round should produce a straight edge if you constantly move the blade across the stone, not the concavity that you are showing.

[Ken S]

Brad,

You have good questions. I essentially agree with Jeff. Let's look at the various elements of your questions.

I suspect your wavy knife edges are a result of an out of true grinding wheel and not moving the knife from side to side. Several times I have experienced annoying problems grinding. The gremlin is usually an out of true grinding wheel. More on truing later.

The sleeves holding the universal support bar are an integral part of the machined zinc top of both the T4 and T8. Being part of the same block, they can not become misaligned. The holes for the shaft, which also hold the nylon bushings, are also machined from this same block. Tormek claims a 300% increase in accuracy with the machined zinc top. I consider the machined zinc top to be the most substantial improvement in the T4 over the T3. The zinc top also works as a radiator to disperse much of the motor heat. The all plastic design of the T3 housing retained heat, sometimes causing the housing to melt.

In ten years as an active forum member, I have not read one post about an overheated or melted T3. Nor have I read about an overheated T4. Frankly, I do not think the 30 minute limitation is a problem any more. Granted, the T8 has a more powerful heavier duty motor, however, I need to rest long before my T4 does.

I met with two Tormek reps when the T4 was introduced. I asked them point blank about T4 motor burn out being covered by the warranty. They did not flinch. I am convinced that Tormek will stand by its warranty with any motor problems.

The jigs are the same for all models of the Tormek. That said, Tormek has redesigned and improved most of the jigs over the years.

The T8 is essentially a slightly version of the T4. If cost is a prime consideration, I suspect a replacement SG-200 and a TT-50 truing tool (if you do not already own one) would solve your problem. A T4 would be a big step up and certainly adequate for your needs. If you are doing much turning, I would favor a T8. You are already a long term Tormek user. I would not choose between a T4 and a T8 based on a perceived cost difference. Choose based on your needs. Your present jigs will work with either.

Although there is no bad choice with Tormek, one choice may suit you better. You are wise to think it through.

Ken

[cbwx34]

Hi all,

I've been a Tormek T-3 owner for the past 14 years or so.  I have many Tormek accessories for wood turning, knife and chisel sharpening. 

I don't use the Tormek as much as my manual sharpeners due to the time required to set up jigs and whatnot.  I also have a problem where my knife bevels can end up wavy -which is very annoying.

But when I do use it, It's going for long periods.  I make specialty carving knives every now and again and rebuild knives.

I've probably gone through 3 grinding wheels in that time.  It's time for me to look at another stone.  Or I could put that money toward an upgrade to the T-8.  I am wondering if jig set up is easier and quicker on a T-8 compared to the T-3.  Also does the bigger stone prevent wavy knife edges?  Any other thoughts on what might convince me to pull the trigger on the upgrade? 

Wavy edge example attached.

This thread makes a bit of a more in depth comparison... https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3976.0

I think you want to read "get a T-8"? but I don't think that would solve any of the issues you described.  I don't see "jig setup" being easier, and I think your "wavy knife edge" might be a result of how you apply pressure to the knife... small blades can actually be harder in some respects.  I think the question might also include T-4 vs T-3... the T-4 has been touted as a major improvement (I've never used a T-3, so can't say).  Anyway, the thread I linked above has a bit more info.

[Brad I]

Thanks for the replies.  You've given me a lot to think about.  And I have more questions.  Hope my long winded response doesn't put you to sleep.

A few things about the T-3. I didn't know until maybe 2 years ago you weren't supposed to run it more than 30 minutes at a time.  There have been many a Saturday where mine was running 4 hours or more.  To this day, it still has the same power as day 1.  I know this because my stone grader sometimes gets stuck and the T3 throws the grader across the table.   I think that speaks to the high quality of the Tormek.

I also didn't mention how as I age, my eyesight is getting so bad for close up work, it's hard for me to see shadows and gaps.  So in my head was thinking the bigger Tormek might be easier to spot angles and setups, etc.  May or may not be the case.

I also spent a few hours watching Tormek videos yesterday and realized I've probably been doing things wrong all along.  Going back to my original book, there was rare mention of using the angle guide - it especially didn't sink in that I should be using the angle guide on both sides of the blade every setup!  I always used the 'sharpie' method which is slow in comparison and produces lackluster results on its own.

In the knife I pictured above, I did true the stone 2x with the TT-50 while grinding.  On retrospect, I think the wavy edge had to do with the awkward angle of the blade on the knife, coupled with the small knife holder mounted to the knife jig.  I have always had a hard time setting up that combination.  I seem to always get the knife slightly ajar in the holder or not parallel to the knife jig

Ken mentioned the universal support shafts of the T3 vs. the T4/T8.  The shafts on the T3 are plain annoying.  Removing and adjusting the universal support drives me crazy.  Removing it it's like having to violently jostle the machine back and forth.  One side of the support sticks, the other doesn't then that side sticks and the other doesn't. I'd rather do anything than have to adjust that arm between truing the stone and bringing it up to the sharpening level.

It seems most are suggesting the T4 over the T8 for my purposes - perhaps even sticking with the T3.  I expected everyone to say "get a T-8", so I am surprised.  The only jig I have problems using (besides the small knife holder + jig combo) on the T3 is the SVD-186 - but I only use that maybe once every 3-4 years. 

So now I think it's just a decision between sticking with the T3 vs. upgrading to the T4.  Considering the stone would be somewhere around $130 shipped, I am leaning toward the T4 since it includes the stone and would likely fix my universal support headaches.  If anyone thinks that's the right/wrong decision, please let me know.  Thanks again. 

[Ken S]

Brad,

One usually overlooked passage in the handbook mentions the importance of working with good light with your Tormek. I learned the importance of this quite by accident. My workshop was my garage. The light was mediocre at best. One day, I set up my Tormek on a Workmate just outside the garage. The light was bright open shade. Eureka! I could see. Even my Anglemaster worked better!

I have switched to using high intensity magnetic LED lamps. If you don't have one, try holding an LED flashlight near your work. Overhead general lighting just doesn't cut it.

I think upgrading to a T4 would be logical for you. My pet peeve with marketing the T4 is that it doesn't come with the TT-50 truing tool. It was designed to be sold at a $400US price point. Not all buyers may need the SE-77 square edge jig, however, everyone needs the truing tool. In my opinion, it should have been marketed at $500 with the truing tool included. In your case, you already have the truing tool. For me, and possibly you, one practical advantage of both the T3 and T4 over the T8 is their lighter weight. At age 70, the T4 is much more comfortable to move and carry. It has half the weight of the T8. Especially with the grinding wheel removed, it is quite comfortable to carry.

There are more related topics which might best be reserved for other posting. These include our forum designed Herman's Homemade Small Platform, which, in my opinion, is easier to use than the small blade holder. And, several different alternative methods of setting the angles on knives.

Do keep us posted and do not hesitate to ask questions.

Ken

[Brad I]

Thanks Ken for the followup.  I went ahead and ordered a T-4.  Messed with it over the holiday weekend.  It is a nice upgrade over the T-3.  But I can also see the T-3 being helpful too.  Might use that for one of the Japanese stones. 

One thing I noticed is the T-4's top gets pretty hot during use.  I assume that's normal since you said it dissipates heat through the top.  Everything else seems sturdy and stable.

Also, was able to fix (for the most part) the bevel on my homemade carving knife I posted in the top thread.  I think part of the issue with that is the scales kept touching the stone.  It has a low 17 degree bevel.  I couldn't get it low enough to the stone without cutting off alot of the scales toward the edge.  Pardon the picture, I'm not much of a photographer. 

[Ken S]

Brad, I am pleased to see that you are enjoying both your T4 and your T3. One of our members (Jeff55?) made the astute comment that "the fastest reload is a second gun". I have never owned a T3, however, at $75, I would have thought of numerous uses for it and would have not have left without it.

I have "mixed and matched" Tormek parts for several years. One of my earliest impressions when I first received my T4 was how much alike it was with my T7 and other Tormek models. Most of the parts are the same. It uses the same jigs and most of the same accessories. In many ways, the T4 has been the prototype for the major upgrades in the T8.

I think you will enjoy your T4. Do stayintouch.

Ken

[jeffs55]

jeffs55 Ken and thanks for remembering some of my wisdom. I can't claim it as original though. I want to think it was Jeff Cooper but am not sure.

[glamo]

I am  sure a  process I used is  not good engineering but it worked for me.I have a T8 that I use with a Japanese stone.
I have used a  T4 (Its a 200 mm blue machine maybe its a Supergrind 1200 ) for 20 years at my work at a school .When I retired I got the T8 and started a sharpening service.The original stone on my T8  reduced to about 200 and I priced a replacement.Instead I got a second hand supergrind 1200 and adapted the bigger stone to fit.
I centred a dowel insert into the removed stone then used an old  25mm spade bit in a solid bench drill press to counter drill the stone
10mm.Not much left of the spade bit but they are disposable This allowed the 250mmx50 stone to fit on the shaft of the small machine (as it has a shaft for a  200 x 40mm stone)So I have been able to use the worn 250 on my smaller machine.I use a  chopped 2 litre icecream container as a water trough..I have a "rough "chinese water stone machine(about 60 grit with a high speed stone one end and a reduction box water trough on the other) for  reshaping and repair ,then my little Tormek 200/1000 grit then 4000 Jap stone on the T8.This way I get to use 4 levels of grinding /sharpening without the drama of changing stones.I rate Tormek so highly I picked up an almost new T7 as a back up "in case" my little machine dies.I also get to save the Jap stone for knives mostly.By using the SG stones first there is not much work needed to finish on the Jap stone.

[cbwx34]

I am  sure a  process I used is  not good engineering but it worked for me.I have a T8 that I use with a Japanese stone.
I have used a  T4 (Its a 200 mm blue machine maybe its a Supergrind 1200 ) for 20 years at my work at a school .When I retired I got the T8 and started a sharpening service.The original stone on my T8  reduced to about 200 and I priced a replacement.Instead I got a second hand supergrind 1200 and adapted the bigger stone to fit.
I centred a dowel insert into the removed stone then used an old  25mm spade bit in a solid bench drill press to counter drill the stone
10mm.Not much left of the spade bit but they are disposable This allowed the 250mmx50 stone to fit on the shaft of the small machine (as it has a shaft for a  200 x 40mm stone)So I have been able to use the worn 250 on my smaller machine.I use a  chopped 2 litre icecream container as a water trough..I have a "rough "chinese water stone machine(about 60 grit with a high speed stone one end and a reduction box water trough on the other) for  reshaping and repair ,then my little Tormek 200/1000 grit then 4000 Jap stone on the T8.This way I get to use 4 levels of grinding /sharpening without the drama of changing stones.I rate Tormek so highly I picked up an almost new T7 as a back up "in case" my little machine dies.I also get to save the Jap stone for knives mostly.By using the SG stones first there is not much work needed to finish on the Jap stone.

A post in need of a picture.

The T-4 requires no modification to put a used stone from a T-8 on... so I'm guessing the older model (1200?) has a different diameter shaft.  (And the T-4 water trough will fit also).