The best Tormek setup for knifes

[papajoe]

I'm pre-new, as my Tormek t8 haven't arrived yet. I would like to end up with the best Tormek system for knifes, and some chisels. Based on some you tube videos I seen, harleywood advised the t8 (standard) was second place to a wicked edge system; until he tried the sj Japanese Waterstone, now, then he said the t8 with sj is the best system, and he never changes the wheel. It seems to me, unless all the knifes to be sharpened are in great shape, that the sj only, wouldn't be the best solution. It seems for chipped blades, and very dull the 200 grit is required. Maybe the 1000 grit can be skipped, and go to the japanese water stone? I'm asking. If all 3 are required, wouldn't 3 t8 machines be the most efficient? Each would always be setup? I seen the reference video by a pro, and he used 200grit, reconditioned the stone to 1000 grit, then went to another t8 with the sj stone. He was repairing a Cutco chef knife, which took about 20 minutes, and turned out great. Maybe he could have saved some time with a third t8 setup? It seems to me, productivity to sit down with 20 knifes that needed some repair/condictioning would be best served with 3 machines/stones. ? Please offer any advise. I have ordered a t8 with sj only stone, and the blade jig kit.

[jeffs55]

You do not need more than one Tormek. Having more than one looks good on paper until you sharpen at different degrees for different knives and tools. Then you have to reset all three. I thought your idea was a good one so I bought a second Tormek to have a Japanese stone permanently mounted. This would work if you free handed your tools as there is no set up for angles. This would work anytime you did not set up for specific angles on your tools. Free handing does not require the USB ( universal support bar) to be used so no jigs are attached to it. In short unless you require three or more different graded stones every time you sharpen, you do not need more than one Tormek. Consider the angles as well. A chisel would likely not be set up like a knife. Further, the steel used is another consideration as some of the stones work better for some materials than they do others. There are probably numerous other reasons not to set up three Tormeks for the same knife or tool. Only if you need a different stone a lot of the time or a different sharpening angle a lot of the time like if you are in business sharpening tools would your idea be a good one.

[John_B]

I think multiple T-8's would be beneficial for multiple stones if you sharpened knives full time and used a set distance when setting up the jig/knives. This way there would be no need to alter the USB height each time. It still would take some time to get a return on your investment and start making money. Also I doubt that your general knife user is not going to pay extra for a knife finished on the Japanese stone. Using the standard SG-250 stone and hone you can with some practice get knives in the razor sharp range.

I would suggest that you learn how to achieve optimum results with the stock setup and at that point reevaluate your need for more accessories for the T-8.

[RickKrung]

There are so many ways to approach this and so many choices on grinding wheels and various ways of honing.  I think you must be very careful and selective about accepting what you see in youtube videos.  Too many are crap.  I think the best approach there is a variant on the "trust but verify":  "Do NOT trust, verify first".  There is one solid youtube producer that I think you can trust: Knife Grinders.  Tormek's videos also, for sure. 

As far as going forward when you get your system. I think it best for you to do two things:

1) Get your T8, set it up and start practicing.  Start with cheapo knives you don't care about, from your own supply, or often preferably from thrift stores,etc..  Most of the latter will be soft steels, which is okay for starters.  Practice, notice how it works and ask a lot of questions on this forum.  Become somewhat proficient with these practice knives before tackling anything important.  I didn't and regretted it, but this is what so many more experiences users recommend too.  There is a lot of muscle memory involved and it takes time to develop it.  Go slowly, watch Knife Grinder's very methodical, precisely controlled motions.  Practice the same. 

2) Read everything you can on this forum on technique, grindstones, stone grading, honing.  Learn from other's experiences, which is very thoroughly documented here. 

You can do everything you need to, particularly in the learning phases, with the standard SG stone, stone grader, leather honing wheel and honing compound.  Do not get caught up in thinking you need fancy wheels, paper wheels, and all that higher end stuff that more experienced users are using.  That all is too much distraction and until you learn the basics, much of it will be useless or counterproductive. 

You will learn that angle control is very important.  The stock AngleMaster tool for setting angles can be frustrating, but it works.   Become close friends with black markers and buy stock in your favorite company...    Even as a more advanced user, I always use the black marker, on all the edges I work on.  There are a multitude of tools/accessories/apps for setting USB heights for angle setting/control, but they all have foibles.  The marker does not lie or mislead. 

Couple more things. 

You will likely discover that your bevels do not turn out the same on opposite sides of knife edges.  This is in part due to the fact that the Tormek jigs are not self centering.  It is my opinion that beginners should NOT worry about this.  Practice getting the bevels on each side as uniform as possible, apex to spine (direction) and along the length.  This is also where practice knives really help, but I believe that knives cut very well even if the bevels don't match.  After you become proficient at getting uniform bevels along each side, independently, you can later start to deal with the asymmetry.  The stock Tormek knife jigs are fairly self centering when the thickness of the blade at the spine is about 2mm.  Look for your practice knives that are close to this thickness.  The thicker the blade, the more difference there will be.  True also for thinner blades, but they can only get so much thinner, whereas thicker ones can get a lot thicker. 

Learn about lifting the blade as you get to the curved part and especially up to the tips.  Not doing so is a major source of non-uniform bevels along the length.  I feel this is not stressed enough in the standard Tormek information, both manual and videos.  There is a very valuable discussion about this, that branched into many different things and lead to several developments, including the importance of pivoting with some more highly curved blades. 

Good luck and stay connected through the forum with your questions, etc.

Rick

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Papajoe.

I am afraid my reply will ruffle some feathers. I regret that. that stated, I think that before you can master "the best Tormek system for knives" you should master a good basic Tormek system for knives.

I would start with just your T8 and the standard SG-250 grinding wheel. I have never been a fan of learning with cheap thrift store knives. Watching Jeff Farris' two knife sharpening you tubes is a must. Jeff used reasonably priced Victorinox chef's knives when he demonstrated the Tormek for many years. I just purchased two Victorinox eight inch chef's knives as part of my learning program. They cost just over $30 US each. They are good quality, easily sharpened steel. I would not cheap out on this. Look at the cost of a couple of these knives as a "lab fee" in your Tormek training. You will only need the standard SVM-45 knife jig for the majority of knives.

Leave your SJ-250 wheel in the box until you become very proficient with the standard wheel. Set your angles with the Sharpie marker or your Anglemaster. With a little practice, the Anglemaster is an adequate tool for setting angles. Make sure you have very good LED task lighting.

Learn to use the stone grader. A proper sharpening job requires both the graded coarse and graded fine. Hold the grader carefully with both hands. Allow plenty of grading time. One minute is a good start. You will be able to hear and feel the difference. There is no need to change any of the settings switching from coarse to fine. With practice, this becomes very efficient.

Learn to check for a burr. I suggest you leave the knife or chisel in the jig when you use the leather honing wheel. Set the support bar for the leather honing wheel the same way you did with the Anglemaster.

Using copy paper for cut testing is a good procedure. As you become skilled with this, you will note not only that your knife cuts, but that it cuts uniformly with no stops and starts.

I would follow the traditional Tormek sharpening technique and not get sidetracked by bevel angles, uneven bevels or different wheel diameters. Once you master the basic set up, these things will fall into place. Please postpone any questions about them until you know the basics; you will progress much more quickly that way.

I suggest you stop watching videos at this point until you learn enough to discriminate for yourself. There is much mediocre advice online.

Ken

[The batsman]

As a new Tormek user I would agree wholeheartedly with the comments above. Personally I found my outcomes and technique improved rapidly and the quality of the edges produced on both knives and chisels have been fantastic. I'm not sure whether it's worth buying a very expensive stone until you're confident that you have a solid technique, have experienced a range of different knives of different shapes and then appreciated the difference that a Japanese stone could make.
A useful addition to my t8 would be the extended USB (us 430) so larger cleavers could be more easily sharpened, this would leave the standard usb permanently set up for guided honing.
Also, I found the kenjig very useful for quick setup. Finer adjustments can be made with calipers.
Good luck and enjoy.

[Ken S]

Batsman,

Thank you for your kinds about the kenjig.

I think you are off to a solid foundation using your Tormek.

I am reluctant to recommend buying accessories to new users. However, the US-430 is a special case. It is a support bar "on steroids". It has both more length and more height. The extra length keeps longer knives from falling off the ends of the support bars. I never noticed the problem with my eight inch chef's knife. I recently purchased a ten inch chef's knife to see how the Tormek handles longer knives. I am pleased to say that the Tormek handles longer knives well with the US-430. (On a practical basis, eight inch knives fit many wooden knife blocks better than longer knives.)
The extra height makes it possible to jig sharpen cleavers. A FVB can also provide the extra height, however, it does not provide the extra length.
Most of us can get by without the US-430 or make do. What it does, it does well. It can also do everything the standard support bar does. It makes a convenient second support bar. I believe every serious Tormek knife sharpener should have one, however, that is not the reason that I recommend it. The US-430 and its predecessor, the US-400 (extra length but no extra height) have been around for many years. The catch is that they have usually been out of production and/or produced in very limited numbers. When a limited production run of the US-400 was finally made, it sold out quickly. I don't know how many US-430s are being produced or how long it will remain in the product list. Therefore, I recommend buying one now if you think you will want one eventually.

Ken

[John_B]

I would like to add a comment on using dollar store knives for practicing.

In short do not do it. These knives are commonly made of inferior materials that are relatively soft. When sharpening these knives you can create the initial burr which is at first encouraging. However, when you flip the knife and attempt to sharpen the other side the burr flips to the other side. This will frustrate the new sharpener as no matter what they do they will not be able to get a fine edge. If you move to honing the same thing happens. This behavior is documented in Dr Vadim Kraichuk's book "Knife Deburring. Science behind the lasting razor edge". Eventually the burr will break off but your knife will not be sharp as it leaves a ragged edge.

I too am a proponent in learning to sharpen on the basic Tormek setup before moving on to different wheels. If you develop bad habits initially you will most likely carry them with you when using the other wheels.

[John_B]

Welcome to the forum, Papajoe.


Using copy paper for cut testing is a good procedure. As you become skilled with this, you will note not only that your knife cuts, but that it cuts uniformly with no stops and starts.

Ken

As your technique and knife sharpening improves you will quickly be able to sharpen a knife that cuts copier paper; almost every new knife will pass this test out of the box. Start saving some newspaper or advertisements from  the weekly fliers that come in the mail. Newsprint is made from thinner paper and cutting it smoothly indicates that you are progressing. Next save your receipts printed on thin thermal paper. Cutting these is another step up in sharpness. Finally cutting cigarette paper is a very good indicator of a razor sharp edge.

[Ken S]

Good posts, John.

A careful observation of Jeff Farris' knife sharpening videos will reveal at least two interesting things:
As a full time Tormek demonstrator and salesman, Jeff couldn't afford to have a "bad day". We all have them occasionally. When he demonstrated how well a Tormek sharpened knife could cut paper, he stacked the odds in his favor by using slick Tormek brochure paper and sharpening a well made knife made of good quality and easily sharpened steel.

I have always admired Jeff, however, we must allow an honest salesman a certain insurance latitude.   

Ken