Using the Japanese Water Wheel to create burrs.

[casher50]

I recently bought a Japanese Water Wheel (JWW) and use it all the time. I have heard people refer to a JWW as an unnecessary luxury that has very little practical use. I disagree!  Any knife that is just dull enough to need grinding but just barely, the JWW will take care of the problem. Although 4000 grit does not remove much metal, it does remove some. Any knife that will not respond to stropping or other edge refining techniques but is other wise pretty sharp can have new burrs created by the JWW while grinding away only tiny amounts of metal. At the same time the JWW produces beautiful mirror finished bevels.

Those of you who have JWWs and have not used them much might consider give them another try. You might be surprised at their practical utility.

[bill clancy]

I have one for my T4, and find that it really polishes up the edge after the regular stone. Pricey? Yup, but I think it's worth the end result.

[Ken S]

Casher,

Good post. I think the criticism of the Japanese wheel (SJ-200 or SJ-250) that you mention is an example of something with a kernel of truth unfortunately over applied. Just like hard Arkansas stones and 8000 grit or finer waterstones, the 4000 grit SJ wheels do cost more than grinding wheels in the more traditional grit range. For a busy farmers market sharpener rushing to sharpen a hundred knives during a Saturday morning, our sharpener might have trouble trying to justify the extra sharpening time and capital outlay required with adding an SJ to the sharpening equipment. This seems a reasonable argument to me.

However, very few of us must deliver that volume of sharpening. The sharpener who has the luxury of fewer time constraints and who takes pride in providing the best edges possible can make good use of the SJ. For a professional sharpener, some time may be needed to educate a prospective customer about the benefits of a more thorough sharpening and deburring process. One way to explain this is to compare it with a car wash. If you want the benefits of an undercarriage wash and protective wax, there is a surcharge.

I do not think the 4000 grit Japanese wheel is an unnecessary luxury. I like your touch up idea. I am primarily a chisel sharpener. With my "knockabout" chisels used for rougher work, I would generally not bother with the 4000 grit wheel. For an expensive tool used for more finish work, I would want the sharpest edge possible, which would include using the 4000 grit wheel.

Ken

PS Well stated, Bill.

[John_B]

Chuck,

Which wheel direction do use with the Japanese stone?

I have vacillated on getting one and more recently I am tempted by the CBN stones offered by Knife Grinders in Australia.
I am able to obtain exceptionally sharp edges with the standard stone and honing wheel by exactly controlling the angle for each process. I worry that these wheels if I did get them would be relegated to use with only my knife collection due to the time required for changing the wheels, water and USB height.

[Ken S]

Interesting post, John.

You aroused my curiosity. When you talk about extra time involved, are you thinking about using the SJ wheel with every knife you sharpen? How much time are we talking, and how can we reduce it without compromising edge quality? The obvious starting point is changing the wheel. With organization and an EZYlock, that time can be minimal.

I don't recall Tormek mentioning a need to change water with different wheel grits. My inner voice tells me we should change the water, however, I am not sure if this is really necessary. It would be helpful to know the results of any testing done by Tormek.

Changing USB height should not be a big deal. The diameters of the two wheels won't change during the sharpening session. Using whatever program we wish, we can determine the millimeter difference between the two wheel diameters. We can use the Microadjust like the threaded spindle of a micrometer. With the Microadjust
12mm x 1.5mm thread. each full revolution of theMicroadjust raises or lowers the USB height by 1.5 mm. Each of the six numbers on the Microadjust raises or lowers the USB height by .25mm. For the knives to be sharpened, we would have only two settings, "up and down".

Is the amount of time involved excessive? Perhaps in the fast paced farmers market environment. Probably not in the pedestrian world of collector's knives. How about the middle world of the lower volume professional or amateur sharpener?

I am asking, not pontificating.......

[casher50]

Chuck,

Which wheel direction do use with the Japanese stone?

I have vacillated on getting one and more recently I am tempted by the CBN stones offered by Knife Grinders in Australia.
I am able to obtain exceptionally sharp edges with the standard stone and honing wheel by exactly controlling the angle for each process. I worry that these wheels if I did get them would be relegated to use with only my knife collection due to the time required for changing the wheels, water and USB height.

I use the JWW turning into the edge. However, you have to be careful. I have had the JWW grab the knife twice and each time the JWW was damaged. The knife put a cut in the surface of the wheel. The first cut has since worn away and smoothed out. The second is still there. I may start using the JWW edge trailing instead of edge leading to prevent this from happening again.

Also, it is my opinion that changing the water often is a good idea, especially since the wheel's surface should be cleaned with the stone grader every knife or so. Dirty water makes it hard to see the edge while sharpening and the metal fragments in the dirty water may have a negative effect on the sharpening process.

[John_B]

Ken, you may be right about the water changing. I came to that conclusion based on honing with different compounds and contamination. Since they do recommend using the fine side of the grading stone every few minutes it may not be a concern. The only person I personally know that has one uses a separate T-8 for it and does not remove it.

I am in the low volume professional category and my clientele so far is somewhat budget minded and have no idea about edge finish. What they do know is how easily tomatoes and meat are cut after sharpening. If I added a step for the Japanese wheel I would most likely do so at an increased cost. I imagine that I could become adept at the wheel and USB changes over time to reduce the time involved. Perhaps I could sell them on the idea if I had a way of demonstrating the benefit. Using the process defined in Wootz's book I think I am somewhere at or slightly below the 100 Bess range.

I think I might try adding an additional honing wheel with 1µ paste before I get the Japanese stone.

[casher50]

Using the JWW does take too much time to use at a farmer's market. It is very doable for low volume sharpening. Even at a farmer's market, occasionally someone might want a more complete job than usually provided in such a venue.

By the way, John asked which direction I use the wheel. I have been using it edge leading but I may change to edge trailing because the wheel has grabbed the knife being sharpened (twice) and the wheel was slightly damaged. Each knife cut a notch in the surface of the wheel. The first one has since smoothed out but the last one just happened day before yesterday and still has a way to go before is is worn away.

Also, I feel that the water should be changed often for two reasons. First, clean water makes it easier to see what you are doing. Second, the water gets very cloudy and dirty, especially since the wheel must be cleaned with the fine side of the grader stone after every knife or so. This puts a lot of metal filings in the water (about the consistency of fine flour). It may be that this gunk in the water affects that sharpening process.

Frequent cleaning is necessary because the wheel's surface gets imbedded with metal and stops cutting well. I have found that the wheel cleans up faster and easier if it is cleaned every few minutes..

[casher50]

One more point. The grader stone needs to be cleaned of debris frequently. I have a 1x30 belt sander with a scotch bright belt on it and clean the grader stone every time that I use it. This only takes about 10 seconds each time.

[RickKrung]

...snip...
... especially since the wheel's surface should be cleaned with the stone grader every knife or so. ...snip...

...snip... especially since the wheel must be cleaned with the fine side of the grader stone after every knife or so. ...snip...

I don't recall whether Tormek recommends cleaning the Japanese wheel (SJ) with the stone grader.  I don't recall reading that. 

But... It would not matter to me if they do recommend it.  I think it is way too harsh for the SJ.  I highly recommend using a rust eraser or a Nagura stone.  I've tried two rust erasers and the ones I like and use are the Sabitoru.
https://www.amazon.com/Rust-Eraser-Sabitoru-Medium-2-piece/dp/B00FS0BFJC

Very gentle on the surface but extremely effective at cleaning.  My sense is they do not wear down the surface at all.  I do not understand how they clean it so well without that, but that is the way it seems to me. 

Rick

[casher50]

Rick,

Thanks for the tip on rust eraser or a Nagura Stone. I will try them ASAP.

[RickKrung]

Rick,

Thanks for the tip on rust eraser or a Nagura Stone. I will try them ASAP.

I'm not sure what the Nagura stone is useful for other than cleaning the SJ wheel.  I have one, had it before the Sabitoru rust erasers, but do not use it for anything anymore.  I think Rich Colvin is where I heard about it and I think he may use it.  Rich, is this right? 

Rick

[John_B]

Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.

https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/

[RickKrung]

Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.

https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/

mebbe so.  Thanks for sharing that.  I figured it was out there.  I still would not do it.  But that is just me. 

Maybe next time I use the SJ, I'll try it.  I have one for the SB stone that I've only ever used the coarse side for.  Then, as I think of it, using the used side fine of my original stone grader, that I only now use the fine side on the SG stone would be less aggressive and better than a fresh one. 

But, alas, I know I'm already predisposed to only use the Sabitoru rust erasers.  They are so gentle and clean so well.  Such is our biased lives, eh?

My routine, when using the SB, SG, SJ stones, in that progression, I use the coarse grader only on the SB, only the fine side on the SG and only the Sabitoru on the SJ.  Works very well and I no longer ever grade the SG coarse. 

Rick

[jvh]

Rick,
Here is a Tormek site where they mention using the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone.

https://www.tormek.com/uk/en/accessories/grinding-wheels/sj-250-tormek-japanese-waterstone/

I've never used the SP-650 for cleaning the Japanese stone because I'am affraid of contaminating stone / water with coarser particles.

Now I use Nagura 5000 NANIWA NG-5000 cleaning stone which works well, but Sabitoru rust erasers looks like very good option. Rick, thank you for your advice.

jvh