Best wheel for Ultra Premium (S110V, S90v, M390, etc)

[texaspro]

I'm ready to purchase a T-8, but I am in the initial stage of learning about different grinding materials for working on the higher end blades I have (S110V, S90v, M390, etc.). I'm not new to knives, but with a ton constantly on my plate, I've yet to even get kind of good at sharpening on my Sharpmaker. I typically just send them into the factory to be done.  :-( No more though. I'm jumping right in and want to get it down. So, yes, sharpening newb and I have some questions.

I've learned that the standard SG-250 is probably not the best stone for these harder materials so I wanted to ask the forum pros what I should be using. I see that a lot of people like CBN. Is that going to be better overall or should I just be looking at the Blackstone (SB-250) or the Diamond wheels?

I've gone through and searched a ton of threads, but it's leaving more questions for me.

Thank you!
CWS

[RichColvin]

Chad,

Vadim Kraichuk (who goes by "Wootz" on this forum) has some great public information at his company's web site:

http://knifegrinders.com.au

And, you will love the T-8!

Kind regards,
Rich

[hunter]

Böhler M 390 is no Problem for the original Tormek Stone.

It is sharpening with the T4.

]nana.com/s/1312/V53CoX9n.html][/url]

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, CWS.

In my opinion, the best starting point is the SG-250. You will learn the most about its strong and weak areas be actually using it yourself. If you should encounter steel alloys that it does not handle well, at that point I would consider purchasing a diamond wheel. Others have differing opinions, however, for my money, diamond is the logical next step. Diamond is our hardest material. The blackstone and CBN are both harder than aluminum oxide, however, why not go to the hardest material? The Tormek and diamond are a good low heat combination. The cost difference is not really significant in the long run.

In my opinion (others will differ) diamond wheels have made the blackstone obsolete. My diamond wheels have cut well for me right out of the box. My blackstone has never cut well for me in nine years.

For knife sharpening, if you decide you want another wheel, start with the DF-250. It is the same grit as the DWF-200, the standard wheel supplied with the T2, which is designed only for restaurant knives. (The T8 is a much more versatile Tormek than the T2.)

Ken

[texaspro]

Thank you all for your feedback!!

To clarify a few things:
- I will most certainly start out with my lower end steel knives. No way I am jumping right into ultra premium steel w/o practice.
- My biggest concern is time. I don't have a lot of it. That's not to say I won't take my time sharpening, it's just that the Tormek is faster on UP steels versus the others.

Having that said, it sounds like I should go straight to the Diamond stones once I've honed my skills. Is that correct? Will I pretty much only need the 1200 grit?

Or, should I go with CBN?

Thanks!

[texaspro]

Welcome to the forum, CWS.

In my opinion, the best starting point is the SG-250. You will learn the most about its strong and weak areas be actually using it yourself. If you should encounter steel alloys that it does not handle well, at that point I would consider purchasing a diamond wheel. Others have differing opinions, however, for my money, diamond is the logical next step. Diamond is our hardest material. The blackstone and CBN are both harder than aluminum oxide, however, why not go to the hardest material? The Tormek and diamond are a good low heat combination. The cost difference is not really significant in the long run.

In my opinion (others will differ) diamond wheels have made the blackstone obsolete. My diamond wheels have cut well for me right out of the box. My blackstone has never cut well for me in nine years.

For knife sharpening, if you decide you want another wheel, start with the DF-250. It is the same grit as the DWF-200, the standard wheel supplied with the T2, which is designed only for restaurant knives. (The T8 is a much more versatile Tormek than the T2.)

Ken

Thank you Ken!! Great info!

CWS

[Ken S]

Gentlemen,

It is your turn to educate me. My knife sharpening experience is what I would call "traditional Tormek". By that I mean kitchen knives and garden variety pocket knives. My kitchen knives vary from the top of the line Henckels I purchased almost thirty years ago to a few ten dollar stainless grocery store knives I bought for sharpening. My pocket knives cost no more than twenty dollars US each. I also have several Mora knives, which I have never used.

My impression is that the ultra steel knives are very expensive. Yes? My everyday Swiss Army knife needs frequent sharpening. It is used for everyday odd jobs. Would someone use an expensive ultra steel knife for these mundane tasks? How off sharp would it be before being resharpened? If it gets resharpened frequently at the slightest dullness, a 1200 grit diamond wheel might be all that is needed. If it gets nicked up, which seems abusive for an expensive knife, one might start with a DC or DF wheel.

I can see where a diamond or CBN wheel might cut harder steels faster than an "Original" SG-250. If the difference is faster cutting rather than cutting and not cutting, how many knives snd how frequently sharpened would be necessary to justify the over $300US cost of each diamond wheel, or the cost of CBN wheels? I expect the answer to vary with individual users and the volume of sharpening involved. Amount of available time and certainly amount of available funds would also be factors.

My recommendation was intended to be to become fluent with the Original SG-250 before looking elsewhere. If the SG was unable to grind the steel one is using, my choice of a second wheel would be diamond, although I have also been happy with CBN. For someone looking for an inexpensive wheel for heavy grinding, an eight inch Norton 46 grit wheel is the best value and fastest cutting at fifty dollars US.It is not an ideal fit, however, once fit it outcuts all the rest.

In my opinion, the ideal first addition for new users is either the Sharpening School DVD by knife expert, Steve Bottorff (from sharpeningmadeeasy.com) for knife sharpening or the Tormek TNT woodturner's information box with its outstanding sharpening and using turning tools DVD. Either of these would be money well spent and valuable references.

Ken

[John_B]

I think before you invest in a diamond wheel you should really give the SG-250 a chance. My kitchen knives are made with mostly Japanese and German steels. I also have some Victorinox knives for butchering deer and elk. For hunting I carry a fixed blade SOG knife that I use for field dressing, skinning and quartering. My every day carry knife is a cheap Smith and Wesson assisted opener. I keep it sharp but use a wider angle than my kitchen knives. I am able to sharpen all of these knives using the SG-250. For me the real key is the intended use of the knife. I must admit I have not tried any of the alternatives as I have been very pleased with the out of the box performance. I test my sharpness with Razoredge tester https://www.razoredgesystems.com/products/testers/product/9-edge-tester and slicing newspaper of magazine paper. I have seen some videos on the Japanese stone for the Tormek and it can put a mirror edge on your blade and it too may be worthy of consideration.

[Ken S]

Good post, John. Being a sharpening junkie, I think I will have to order one of the Razoredge testers. Thanks for the tip.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I think before you invest in a diamond wheel you should really give the SG-250 a chance. My kitchen knives are made with mostly Japanese and German steels. I also have some Victorinox knives for butchering deer and elk. For hunting I carry a fixed blade SOG knife that I use for field dressing, skinning and quartering. My every day carry knife is a cheap Smith and Wesson assisted opener. I keep it sharp but use a wider angle than my kitchen knives. I am able to sharpen all of these knives using the SG-250. For me the real key is the intended use of the knife. I must admit I have not tried any of the alternatives as I have been very pleased with the out of the box performance. I test my sharpness with Razoredge tester https://www.razoredgesystems.com/products/testers/product/9-edge-tester and slicing newspaper of magazine paper. I have seen some videos on the Japanese stone for the Tormek and it can put a mirror edge on your blade and it too may be worthy of consideration.

I'lll 2nd this.

While I'm no expert in this area... my experience and understanding is, (on knives anyway), the type of sharpening media used on "higher end" steels, really doesn't become a factor until you get to the finer grits,,, where the grit size approaches the size of the particles in the steel.  And... the diamond wheels don't really get that fine in this regard.  Otherwise, the biggest factor, and not necessarily that significant, is just a bit slower cutting.  (I know way simplified).

I've got the diamond wheels, and while I haven't done a whole lot with them... I've done enough to know that when I'm sharpening something with the regular wheel, I have yet to find a time where I think switching to the diamond wheel would make a difference.  Again this is for knives... but it's making me think that there might be a need for them in regards to turning tools (with HSS)... that doesn't "cross over" to the knife world.

The Japanese stone might be where it matters... as wootz posted somewhere, he found it not very effective on some M390 steel knives he had... (some of this depends on how well they're heat treated also).  But, there's no "diamond equivalent" to the Japanese wheel.

Just some rambling thoughts on this. 

[texaspro]

Is the a CBN wheel equivalent to the Japanese stone? Or CBN wheel equivalent to the 1200 Diamond?

[Ken S]

I don't know how closely grit numbers correlate between different kinds of abrasives.

The SJ is essentially a round Tormek size water stone. Like a 4000 or finer grit water stone, it is essentially a polishing stone. It is not designed to remove more than a miniscule amount of metal. I suggest you master the leather honing wheel first. The Tormek PA-70 honing compound breaks down in use to finer particle size. I have heard the number 6000 grit bandied about, although I am not certain that anyone really knows. I do not consider the SJ necessary or even practical for everyday sharpening, especially for a small sharpening business.

1200 is the finest grit I am aware of for either diamond or CBN. I do not know how they compare. (My CBN wheels are 80 and 180 grit. They are primarily designed for high speed dry grinding turning tools.) I suspect either would cut more quickly than the SG graded fine to 1000, although I would also guess that the finish would be almost identical.

I think the smart way to save time is through efficient set up procedures. End sharpening sessions with a very light truing cut with the TT-50. That way, you begin the next session with a true wheel and clean water. Use a kenjig or at least a black marker to quickly set up your jig. Standardize your set up.

Do not become discouraged. Keep sharpening and keep learning.

Ken

[John_B]

Good post, John. Being a sharpening junkie, I think I will have to order one of the Razoredge testers. Thanks for the tip.

Ken

The Razoredge stick replaces the 3 finger on the knife edge and the fingernail test. The 3 finger test for any roughness makes some people cringe, however, I have yet to cut myself.

[Ken S]

I think before you invest in a diamond wheel you should really give the SG-250 a chance. My kitchen knives are made with mostly Japanese and German steels. I also have some Victorinox knives for butchering deer and elk. For hunting I carry a fixed blade SOG knife that I use for field dressing, skinning and quartering. My every day carry knife is a cheap Smith and Wesson assisted opener. I keep it sharp but use a wider angle than my kitchen knives. I am able to sharpen all of these knives using the SG-250. For me the real key is the intended use of the knife. I must admit I have not tried any of the alternatives as I have been very pleased with the out of the box performance. I test my sharpness with Razoredge tester https://www.razoredgesystems.com/products/testers/product/9-edge-tester and slicing newspaper of magazine paper. I have seen some videos on the Japanese stone for the Tormek and it can put a mirror edge on your blade and it too may be worthy of consideration.

I'lll 2nd this.


I've got the diamond wheels, and while I haven't done a whole lot with them... I've done enough to know that when I'm sharpening something with the regular wheel, I have yet to find a time where I think switching to the diamond wheel would make a difference.  Again this is for knives... but it's making me think that there might be a need for them in regards to turning tools (with HSS)... that doesn't "cross over" to the knife world.

CB has made an interesting point. While many of the forum posts are knife centric, the primary market for both CBN and diamond wheels is not. The vast majority of CBN wheels are designed and marketed for turners. (In my opinion, the Tormek diamond wheels are also designed primarily for turners.) The two most common CBN grits are 80 and 180. With conventional aluminum oxide wheels, typically 46 and 80 grit wheels will be standard. Turners want wheels which will remove a lot of steel quickly. The steel is generally hss or harder alloys. Some tools are reshaped as well as resharpened. Five minutes of high speed turning may generate more cutting than many years duty for a knife.

Both diamond and CBN wheels are beginning to be available in finer grits which are more knife friendly. At some point, probably not far away, they may become standard for knife sharpeners. Considering that most knives are either stainless or carbon steel, I think they are still useful for knife sharpeners.

Ken

[wootz]

We are a recognized high-end knife expert sharpening service in Australia, and yes, you can bevel the premium wear resistant steels on aluminium oxide SG or silcon carbide SB wheel, actually these steels MDS typically recommend grinding with aluminium oxide.
If you don't have diamond or CBN wheels, no problem bevelling the wear-resistant blade with a silicon carbide or aluminium oxide abrasive, but edge setting and honing must be done with the diamonds/CBN for the lasting sharp edge; honing the wear-resistant edge with ceramic, aluminium oxide and chromium oxide compounds is the main cause of them dulling early, actually they may cut worse than a good mainsream knife.

To understand why it is so, as a minimum please read the chapter on high end knives in my Knife Deburring book, the shortened version of which is available for free on our website:
http://knifegrinders.com.au/Manuals/Knife_Deburring_book.pdf

If you have time and are after strict experimental facts, read our lengthy research "Edge Rolling in High Vanadium Knives Sharpened with Aluminium Oxide versus CBN/Diamond" in http://knifegrinders.com.au/16SET.htm

In the Sharpening Procedures section of our web site we have a basic routine described for Tool and high-end steels http://knifegrinders.com.au/06Procedures_HE.htm