A Request from the Forum Moderator

[Ken S]

We have had a lot of forum conversation recently about newer grinding wheels for the Tormek. I have mixed feelings about this. I have written forum reviews about Norton 3X and CBN wheels. At the time, Tormek was not offering anything comparable, so I felt no conflict of interest. As I believe in making the Tormek as versatile as possible, I still have no problem with technical discussion of CBN wheels.

As forum moderator, I do have a problem with comments about a competitor's product being "half the cost of the Tormek product". Tormek provides this ad free forum for us at no cost to us. Unlike other forums, this forum has never been a place to buy or sell new or used Tormek gear. Nor have we allowed negative criticism of competitors' products. Tormek has always been the industry leader in quality innovative wet grinders. Quality comes with a quality price tag.

If we discuss CBN wheels, let us please discuss them in terms of their functionality, not their cost comparison with Tormek products.

Ken Schroeder
Tormek Community Forum Moderator

[GKC]

Ken, I agree with you that we should be respectful of Tormek when discussing the price of their equipment, but I don't think that it is necessary or prudent to restrict that discussion from the forum. 

I would say it is not necessary because Tormek is quite familiar and very good at defending the cost of their equipment, and they sometimes do it explicitly (See the Stumpy Nubs interview with Stig, the topic of which is why Tormek costs so much.  Stig knew that this is a question that Tormek has to be able to answer, and he did it well).  The value proposition of Tormek equipment is a very common topic of discussion on other forums.

I would say a ban on price discussions is not prudent (not in Tormek's interest) because it could damage the credibility of this forum and make it appear that Tormek is afraid to see discussion of its price and value ratio.  As noted, I don't think that Tormek shies from that discussion.

Though I have not been on this forum for long, I have seen that most members (and myself) are capable of defending the value of Tormek products.  But not everyone has an unlimited budget, and to some Tormek users the price of alternatives is not irrelevant.  No one is saying (or at least, I have not seen it said here) that the prices of Tormek products (the stand, the mat, the wheels) are inappropriate for their quality—that is, members are not saying that Tormek is gouging.  It is just that some people are price sensitive or might not see the need for the very high quality of a particular Tormek item of equipment. 

I would hazard that most members do not have the Tormek stand.  It is not that they don't recognize the quality of the stand or the reasons why it is so expensive, it is just that they find less expensive alternatives to be satisfactory.  And how many of us use a dish mat or a boot tray or (me) a pizza pan instead of the Tormek mat?

Price is just one part of the two part "price/performance" equation, and we surely cannot exclude discussion of performance when some non-Tormek alternative (a homemade jig, a jig made for another machine) provides performance that is superior for some purpose to that of the corresponding Tormek equipment.

When I reviewed the Hewn & Hone jig for the Tormek, of course I noted that it was very expensive.  It is easily twice as expensive as the Tormek knife jigs.  But it has a function, and if you would benefit from that functionality it is good value even at that high price.

About CBN wheels, if you compare feature-for-feature, the CBN wheels with steel or aluminium frames and three sharpening surfaces (like the Tormek diamond wheels) are almost exactly the same price as the Tormek diamond wheels.  But there are CBN wheels that are less expensive because they have different frame materials and only one sharpening face.  This is not to say that the Tormek diamond wheels are not good value, but some users might have a price sensitivity and/or a more limited need for functionality. 

I am confident that Tormek would not benefit from the appearance that they are shy of this discussion.  It is my impression that when Tormek is confronted with a debate about their prices, their attitude is (quite properly) "bring it on". 

So, acknowledging your important point about being mindful of the hosts of the forum, I think the goal should be to keep the discussion respectful, but not to restrict it by topic.

Gord

[Ken S]

Gord,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. Actually, our thinking is not far apart. My concern is not for knowledgeable members like you. My concern is for new members and guests who have not previously viewed things like the Stumpy Nubs video with Stig. Obviously Tormek, like any other high end product, is more expensive than many. I certainly do not want to conceal that. I agree that most of us, myself included, do not need a seven hundred dollar work station. (I purchased mine because I am a Tormek junkie. I don't play golf, drive expensive cars or eat at pricey restaurants; I do have a weakness for Tormek.) That stated, compared with like quality products like Kennedy chests, I feel the Tormek work station is fairly priced. And, for the record, I still use the discarded child's table I cobbled together almost fifty years ago with 2x4 legs. It is quite functional.

I just reread my original post. In hindsight, it reads more strongly than I intended. I did not mean to imply a ban on comparative pricing, just keeping it low key.

For the record, I am not yet convinced that the new Tormek diamond wheels are worth the price. For me, two of the three key elements are positive. The quality seems quite good. I like the way the diamonds cut. At this point, Tormek has not convinced me that I need the side abrasive. After more than forty years of advocating edge grinding, Tormek has changed tack and is also promoting side grinding. While this may actually be a great advance, Tormek has not explained why. I am open to that possibility; I have just not seen any supporting evidence. Until then, I would be just as happy with a circumference only grinding wheel.

I do not mean to stiffle discussion.

Ken

[RichColvin]

I agree with Ken.  Tormek have been very kind to provide this forum space, & I believe we should discuss

• help for people on how to best use the Tormek grinder or jigs,
• topics where some have found ways to make using the Tormek easier (e.g., the KenJig),
• topics where some have augmented the Tormek jigs (e.g., the pin pivot jig), and
• even the merits (or complaints) about their products.

But not competitive products nor cheaper (and less expensive) alternatives.

Kind regards,
Rich

[Ken S]

I really don't want to get dogmatic about this. This forum is the primary source of Tormek related information. I want to keep it that way. I have purchased and used seven non Tormek grinding wheels, almost as many as the Tormek wheels I use. (Nobody, including me, needs that many grinding wheels. Much of this experimentation is my pursuit of a truly effective coarse grinding wheel. The latest wheel in this auest should arrive later this week.)

I do not want to stifle this creative curiousity in any of us. I want us all to feel free to pursue our own paths with the Tormek. If those paths include supplementing with non Tormek products, so be it. I am no stranger to budgetary constraints. I also know that for many of us paying for flat side grinding may seem an unnecessary expense. All I am saying is let's emphasize the functionality of a product rather than its cost difference with a Tormek product.

Ken

ps For the record, Tormek has not bern involved in this conversation. The opinions I express are solely my own.