Search of wheel between J800 and J4000

[vitaliki_gmbh]

Hi guys!

Just wondering is there 250mm wheel for Tormek with grain size 7-16 mu?

So far as I inderstand jis800 has grain 20mu and jis 4000 only 3 mu, so there is a  gap in between

Please do not propose paste, i am asking only the wheel.

Thank you and have a nice day

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Vitaliki.

I do not know of any grinding wheels in that grain size range. CBN wheels are beginning to be available in increasingly fine grits. These are often special order items. I have seen them as high as 1200 grit. I would suggest you contact a couple companies which sell them. You will need to discuss your requirements with them. Do a goigle search on CBN wheels. These may be only available with a larger bore. With my CBN wheels, the bore is one inch. The company provides very well made steel reducing bushings to match the Tormek 12mm shaft.

The simplist possibility is to maximize the fine grading with the standard Tormek SG-250 wheel and the stone grader. After several years of using the stone grader, I tried applying it for a much longer time. I was amazed with how much smoother the stone's surface became. Using the stone grader need not be just an either 220 or 1000 grit choice. With more subtle use, it is capable of producing a range of gradations. I was not achieving the full fine grade. I suspect most users have that same situation.

As a first possible solution, try using your stone grader for longer than a full minute. That, combined with lighter grinding pressure, may  give you the finer grit you desire. The effect of the stone grader can last quite a while with flat blades like knives and chisels.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[Stickan]

Hi,
When purchasing original Tormek wheels there is no need to use something between our SG and SJ stones.

Best,
Stig

[cbwx34]

Hi guys!

Just wondering is there 250mm wheel for Tormek with grain size 7-16 mu?

So far as I inderstand jis800 has grain 20mu and jis 4000 only 3 mu, so there is a  gap in between

Please do not propose paste, i am asking only the wheel.

Thank you and have a nice day

Just out of curiosity, where did you get the numbers you referenced?  The Tormek wheel is typically described as 220g or 1000g, not 800.  (There is an 800 Japanese wheel, which made me wonder).

The simplist possibility is to maximize the fine grading with the standard Tormek SG-250 wheel and the stone grader. After several years of using the stone grader, I tried applying it for a much longer time. I was amazed with how much smoother the stone's surface became. Using the stone grader need not be just an either 220 or 1000 grit choice. With more subtle use, it is capable of producing a range of gradations. I was not achieving the full fine grade. I suspect most users have that same situation.

As a first possible solution, try using your stone grader for longer than a full minute. That, combined with lighter grinding pressure, may  give you the finer grit you desire. The effect of the stone grader can last quite a while with flat blades like knives and chisels.

I would 2nd this... you can get the stone graded pretty fine with the stone grader... to the point where it feels very smooth to the touch.  The result on the typical blade will be the start of what I'd call a "hazy shine".  This is where it should be prior to the SJ (Japanese) wheel.  I'd try a bit more with the stone grader, and see if the results improve?

I also watched a video a couple of months ago where a Tormek user graded the stone from coarse to fine using diamond plates (down to 8000g).  While he didn't show a closeup of the result, (he described it as polished), you could hear the stone was getting finer as he graded it down.  But even the standard stone grader demonstrates the stone is designed to "perform" at various grit levels.

[Daniel]

Very interesting topic!

Vitaliki, since the Tormek machine is doing all the hard work for you, and doing it really fast, I see no reason for an intermediate grit between 800 and 4000. It shouldn't pose the slightest challenge to eliminate 800 grit scratch marks using a 4000 stone. Working with a Tormek is a very different process from hand sharpening. I see where you are coming from, as it would be highly benefitial to have an intermediate grit if we were doing it by hand with bench stones and maybe a honing guide, speeding up the process and sharing wear amongst many different stones, but it doesn't work the same way with a Tormek. If anything, I would say you would lose more time switching yet another wheel than spending an extra 5-10 seconds on a 4000 wheel.

cbwx34, I think he is talking about some japanese waterstone wheels made by the same company that makes the King bench stones, can't remember its name right now. I have seen them on some webs sold as compatible for Tormek and many other clones. They are sold in those 2 grits, 800 and 4000. I have a King 4000 bench stone and I love it above any 6000+ stone, but the logic behind an 800 grit wheel goes beyond me - King stones have a reputation for being soft, and rightly so. I can imagine a Tormek wheel made of that material would be a nightmare to maintain true and would not last for long either.

Ken, I think I may have found a method to grade the stone even faster, but I am not sure it is giving me the intended results. I found out partly thanks to a Jeff Farris video: I saw him holding the stone grader by one extreme and applying the other against the wheel, instead of holding it with both hands and applying pressure with the middle area of the grader between the hands. When I first saw him I thought it made perfect sense, since the stone grader will dish with use, it seems logical to use the new high points to ensure contacting the wheel everywhere. Hopefully you follow me so far and even do the same already.

Now the interesting part of holding the grader with one hand and applying pressure with the other is that the hand holding the grader has a very accurate control of the angle at which the grader "rests" on the stone. By applying small amounts of force upwards or downwards with that hand I can actually SEE where the high points of the grader are abrading the stone, leaving a sort of a cloudy trail behind. Once I have seen that white-ish trail on an area of the stone for a full revolution or two, I slightly vary pressure upwards or downwards to hit other areas. Once I have hit the whole stone I am done, it might take me 20-30 seconds, possibly even less.

The results are quite impressive in some ways: The texture of the stone becomes so smooth it hardly removes any metal anymore. There is almost no noise when the blade hits the stone. It feels like a completely different wheel, but I think the scratch marks are still too wide to be considered anything close to 1000 grit. In fact, I would say they look the same as when the stone is rough graded for 220. If anything, I can see the bevel becoming shinier as a whole, but those wide scratches still concern me.

[cbwx34]

cbwx34, I think he is talking about some japanese waterstone wheels made by the same company that makes the King bench stones, can't remember its name right now. I have seen them on some webs sold as compatible for Tormek and many other clones. They are sold in those 2 grits, 800 and 4000. I have a King 4000 bench stone and I love it above any 6000+ stone, but the logic behind an 800 grit wheel goes beyond me - King stones have a reputation for being soft, and rightly so. I can imagine a Tormek wheel made of that material would be a nightmare to maintain true and would not last for long either.

If true, (and you're right the finer King wheel is also 4000)... I have them and use them... and you definitely don't need an "in-between" stone for them.  (The King 4000 doesn't produce as fine a finish as the Tormek SJ wheel, and the 800g isn't as aggressive).

Also, in contrast to the King bench stones... the wheels are not soft at all.  (I would guess a different binder and/or process).  In fact, they wear so little, I'll sometimes use a diamond stone on them, just to refresh the surface.

[RichColvin]

Hi,
When purchasing original Tormek wheels there is no need to use something between our SG and SJ stones.

Best,
Stig

I agree with Stig.  I go from 1,000 on the SG stone to 4,000 on the SJ with no intermediate step.  I've had good luck with that approach with a number of tools.

Rich

[Ken S]

In my opinion, the best way to answer your question is with several 3/4" Irwin Blue Chip chisels (as covered in the Tips and Techniques topic locked at the top of the Tormek General section. By having several of these learning chisels, you can compare the results with different sharpening techniques.

I compared chisels ground with 80 and 180 grit CBN wheels. Then I went straight to the leather honing wheel with generous time and compound. The results were surprisingly good, with BESS numbers in the 130 range. Although both gave good results this way, neither was as good as the Tormek SG -250 (or SG-200 in the T4) using the traditional three step technique, coarse graded, fine graded and leather honing wheel. The bevel was more polished with smooth scratches and the BESS reading was 100.

The SJ 4000 grit stone is a polishing wheel. It removes very little metal. It is not a substitute for including the SG graded to 1000 grit. This crucial step makes the scratch pattern smaller in preparation for the leather honing wheel or the SJ.

The bevels on a bench chisel are so much easier to see than a knife bevel.

Ken