Question regarding the SJ-200

[Ken S]

Don,

I just reread this entire topic. It's all to easy to just read the last post before replying. I think this topic is worthy of several quiet rereads. CB has shared a lot of valuable experience. I have not replied much because he has done such an outstanding job.

I would add only two minor suggestions: 1) Working with really good light can make a huge difference. For years I worked in a poorly lit garage. "Poorly lit" is a charitable description. Then one day I set up my Tormek on a Workmate just outside the garage. I was astounded with the difference working in daylight made. My present basement workshop looks like it has good light, lots of fluorescent fixtures. This is actually poor task lighting. Try holding a LED flashlight over your work.

I now have an AC powered LED light with a magnet over my Tormek. It is better, but not perfect. The light is good, however, the gooseneck is less solid than I would like. The magnet is only so so. I also have a battery powered magnetic base light. The light is quite good, as is the magnet. The gooseneck is adequate (but not great). The major design flaw is that most AA batteries are too thick for it. They fit into the holder, but cause the holder to jam. There is an acceptable diameter range for AA batteries. Most of the better batteries are within the larger range. Some of the cheap batteries will fit. If this unit had an AC adaptor, it would be ideal.

My lighting is now much better, however, I am still looking for improveed lighting.

2) Don, you used the word "knives". I suggest changing your focus to "knife", singular. If you want to sharpen six knives, put five of them out of sight and out of mind. CB is dead right; time is not the issue. Work with that one knife until you get it hair popping sharp. Pay attention to how you got to that point. Once you finally arrive at that sharpness, bring out the second knife. Stay with it until it is also hair popping sharp. Efficiency will come with practice, however, it will be impeded if you lose focus and start thinking about the next knife before you complete the first one.

Expect to experience a pleasant rush of success when that first knife is finally hair popping sharp.

Again, very solid advice, CB.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I appreciate that... but I hope others will also chime in.  My way isn't the only way... just seems to work for me.    I'm sure others have tips/tricks that are effective... and may come closer to solving the issue... or providing that "ah-ha" moment.

There are many paths to sharp! 

[DonWerner]

I tried some of the advice today, I was giving in this thread. I decided to focus on one knife like Ken suggested, and I also used a pocket magnifier and took my time making sure the angle was spot on, before I started sharpening - and lo and behold, I just sharpened my first hair popping sharp knife. I didn't use the waterstone, but just the leather honing wheel, not sure if I could have gotten it even sharper, if I finished it off with the waterstone?

Ofcause I wanted to try and duplicate the result on another knife right away, but didn't quite get the same result. Still got it very, very sharp, but maybe lacking the last 5%. I will try again tomorrow.

How important is the angle when using the waterstone? Do I need to pay the same amount of attention to the angle as when I'm using the sharpening stone? The reason I ask is because I always hone freehand (on the leather wheel) and it doesn't seem to be that important if I hit the exact same/right angle when honing - but I might be completely wrong?

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I think I am finally on the road to cracking the code. :-)

[cbwx34]

I tried some of the advice today, I was giving in this thread. I decided to focus on one knife like Ken suggested, and I also used a pocket magnifier and took my time making sure the angle was spot on, before I started sharpening - and lo and behold, I just sharpened my first hair popping sharp knife. I didn't use the waterstone, but just the leather honing wheel, not sure if I could have gotten it even sharper, if I finished it off with the waterstone?

Ofcause I wanted to try and duplicate the result on another knife right away, but didn't quite get the same result. Still got it very, very sharp, but maybe lacking the last 5%. I will try again tomorrow.

How important is the angle when using the waterstone? Do I need to pay the same amount of attention to the angle as when I'm using the sharpening stone? The reason I ask is because I always hone freehand (on the leather wheel) and it doesn't seem to be that important if I hit the exact same/right angle when honing - but I might be completely wrong?

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I think I am finally on the road to cracking the code. :-)

Glad it's working out. 

I think angle is always important,,, even on the leather wheel.  It's not critical to match the angle exactly, but when I use the leather wheel, (and like you it's usually freehand, even if I sharpen with a jig), I always try and "sneak up" on the edge... starting at a slightly lower angle and gradually increasing it until I hear/feel it reach the edge... then back off ever so slightly.  Too high an angle may leave you a sharp edge... but can sometimes take away that extra "5%" you're looking for... slightly dulling the edge, and leaving it not quite as sharp.

I think angle is even more important on the SJ wheel.  If I use a jig to sharpen a knife on the regular wheel, I'll use it for the SJ wheel, following the guidelines I mentioned earlier.  If I freehand, I still try and pay attention and be as accurate as possible.

Even though honing isn't removing as much metal, I still think it's important to watch the angle.  Even if I'm maintaining a knife on a ceramic rod... which for me is usually only one or two passes per side, I find if I get careless, I can "kill" an edge.

I think it's good that the details are starting to matter... tells me it's coming together for you.

[DonWerner]

Yay! It's really coming along now.  Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. 

I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?

[cbwx34]

Yay! It's really coming along now.  Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. 

I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?

Cool.

If using the SJ wheel... I would skip the leather wheel step after the 1K... since the leather might slightly alter the angle... making the SJ wheel less effective.  OTOH, I have had a couple of knives that after the SJ wheel, they just didn't seem to 'clean up' well, so I made a couple of passes on the leather wheel... so you can go that direction if needed.  (Not sure if it was the knife or me). 

Did you try a couple of really light alternating passes on the SJ wheel at a bit higher angle? (2-4° higher).  See if that makes a difference.

(If this doesn't help... say so, and I'll let someone else chime in). 

[Sharpco]

Yay! It's really coming along now.  Just tried again with another knife with great results. Seems like I've not been paying enough attention to the angle. 

I tried sharpening the knife from grit 250->1000->leather honing->4000 waterstone. But finishing off with the waterstone actually made the knife less sharp than when I tested the sharpness right after I did the leather honing. I then used the leather hone again after the waterstone and got a good result. What is your guys procedure? Do you skip the leather hone if you're using the waterstone or finish with it instead?

My result is the same. I think the leather wheel makes a sharper edge.

[Elden]

I appreciate that... but I hope others will also chime in.  My way isn't the only way... just seems to work for me.    I'm sure others have tips/tricks that are effective... and may come closer to solving the issue... or providing that "ah-ha" moment.

There are many paths to sharp! 

   I have found it interesting while reading, the difference in the approach of cbwx 34 and that of wootz in obtaining the final edge. I am not contesting either one's method. I am sure they both are obtaining sharp edges.




2 Quotes from cbwx34:

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3479.msg21988#msg21988

I also don't spend a lot of time on the leather honing wheel with this method.  Usually just a light pass or two (at, or near the same angle as sharpening) to refine the edge gives me the best result.  If on the SJ wheel, a couple of light alternating passes at a higher angle (2-4 deg. higher) will produce a "hair popping" edge.  (So if you want to "mirror polish an edge, do that at the same angle on the SJ wheel, or slightly lower on the leather wheel, then do the light alternating passes at the higher angle).

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3479.msg22012#msg22012

Did you try a couple of really light alternating passes on the SJ wheel at a bit higher angle? (2-4° higher).  See if that makes a difference.


Quote from wootz:

https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=3384.msg20799#msg20799

You must either be setting an angle on the SJ too steep, or overhoning the edge.
Try the following.

Having ground an edge on your  SG wheel, change to the SJ, and adjust the US height to the edge angle as accurately as you can, by whatever method you use.
Then LOWER the US by 1 digit.
This way you will spare the very edge apex from the impact.

http://www.bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=209&pid=1602#pid1602

For CBN (or diamond) wheels, the crucial discovery was to hone on paper wheels at 0.1 degree less. E.g. an edge set on a CBN wheel grit #1000 at 15 degrees per side, is honed at 14.9 degrees.
To set a paper wheel with such precision would not be possible without our software.
This refines the edge not touching the very apex that is already 0.1 micron after the grit #1000 as shown by SEM.
Thanks to that, even the Grepper's beloved toothiness is preserved.

The remnants of the microburr are then removed by honing at the exact edge angle (15 degrees in our example) on a paper wheel with the finest diamonds 0.25/0.5 micron, and USB microscope shows the toothiness is all there, which is to advantage for knives.

[cbwx34]

There are many paths to sharp! 

[wootz]

Regarding microbevelling on the SJ wheel, I am aware that many apply it successfully, just it never worked for me.
It's all about how we hone, but can't tell what exactly differs till we watch each other side by side, which is hardly going to happen.
I must definitely be honing on SJ in a way that overhones the apex.
As soon as I tried a shallower than the edge angle, I started getting it sharp.

There are many paths to sharp! 

That's why cbwx34 often advises to try both approaches, and see which works for you.

[cbwx34]

In addition to saying, there are many paths to sharp, I should probably add, there are many levels of sharp, and there are many types of sharp.  For example, wootz is testing his blades with some specific equipment, and some specific results in mind.  I test to a different (and probably not as high) a level.  So, for example, honing at a higher angle leaves me a "cleaned up" and better edge, it may do the same for wootz or others, but it's not the edge or "type of sharp" he's looking for... so for him it's a "fail".

As for types, some prefer a finer edge that easily goes thru what's being cut, others want a "toothy" or coarse edge, that isn't as "sharp" but is better at cutting rope for example.  So, what I might consider "not sharp" to them might be "extremely sharp".  Some think an edge that is as narrow as possible is sharp, while others will consider an edge sharp if it holds up for a trip in the backcountry performing a variety of "hard use" tasks, with minimal maintenance.

So, when I say, "there are many paths to sharp", it's the shorter and easier version of... "There are many paths to different types and levels of sharp, as well as the type of edge that will work best for you.  It's why I always recommend trying different methods, and finding the one you like the best. 

p.s.  I should also add that the geometry of the knife also plays a part in what may or may not work.

[Ken S]

Point well made.

Ken