T4 and acknowledged water spillage issue

[RickKrung]

I don't think any of that matters.  I believe it is simple physics.  I think the amount of water on the wheel is the result of the surface tension of water.  If the full width of the wheel contacts the water (and breaks the surface tension), as it exits contact with the water, the surface tension will cause the same amount of water to be carried up the wheel, regardless of how deeply the wheel was submerged in the water. 

If you want to reduce the amount of water on the wheel, I believe you would need to devise a controlled water application, similar to how coolant is applied to the cutter and work pieces on machine tools (flood coolant on lathes & mills but "flood" would not different, perhaps worse).  It may be as little as dripping water on the back side of the wheel without the wheel being submerged in a pool of water at all, or a small stream of water. I think the latter as without enough water, you lose the benefit/function of water on the wheel - cooling.

Rick

Replying to my own post...   Depth of submersion could make a difference, but again due to surface tension.  Water attached to the sides of the wheel would be carried up and add to the amount of water on the grinding surface.  But by how much? 

Rick

[Elden]

Ken,
  I figured his comment:
" Tormek would argue that you don't need any bench stones and that you can sharpen as well as grind. Well, you can, but for furniture making I wouldn't recommend sharpening plane blades and chisels with it."
would be met with varied responses. It seemed a little odd to me. I thought about starting a thread about it and didn't.  I am sure it it would take some finesse to make a furniture maker happy. However, I think with practice one could create a truly straight cutting edge on a plane blade with the Tormek.
   In regard to the water quote, I was putting that put out there for a laugh. Personally my sharpening has been mainly done outside and I was not concerned about spillage, the most of which came from handling the water through.

[Ken S]

Elden,

I think "furniture making" is a rather broad category. While I can see the possibility of some parts of furniture being very high end, where one might want to finish with a very fine stone. One could still do the majority of this sharpening, the harder labor, with a Tormek, doing the final step or two with very fine bench stones. However, much of furniture making, even high end, involves using secondary woods. A fine mahagony Queen Anne highboy may have oak inner parts, like interior drawer parts. I can't imagine a chisel or a plane which is skillfully sharpened on a Tormek not being up to these tasks.

Some of the leading proponents of bench stones happen to sell bench stones.I mean no negative implications, just that there are different valid ways to sharpen. A top quality set of oil or waterstones can rival a Tormek in cost.

I set up my Tormek outside on my Workmate one time years ago. It was not only pleasant, it was eye opening. For the first time, I could really see my Anglemaster. I recommend this outdoor experience for all Tormekers.

Good post, Elden. Thanks.

Ken

[cbwx34]

I don't think any of that matters.  I believe it is simple physics.  I think the amount of water on the wheel is the result of the surface tension of water.  If the full width of the wheel contacts the water (and breaks the surface tension), as it exits contact with the water, the surface tension will cause the same amount of water to be carried up the wheel, regardless of how deeply the wheel was submerged in the water. 

If you want to reduce the amount of water on the wheel, I believe you would need to devise a controlled water application, similar to how coolant is applied to the cutter and work pieces on machine tools (flood coolant on lathes & mills but "flood" would not different, perhaps worse).  It may be as little as dripping water on the back side of the wheel without the wheel being submerged in a pool of water at all, or a small stream of water. I think the latter as without enough water, you lose the benefit/function of water on the wheel - cooling.

Rick

Replying to my own post...   Depth of submersion could make a difference, but again due to surface tension.  Water attached to the sides of the wheel would be carried up and add to the amount of water on the grinding surface.  But by how much? 

Rick

Yup... my point exactly that I was trying to say a while back.  Seems like no matter how little water's in the trough... it still builds up and runs off the knife (when sharpening off the vertical USB).

[Elden]

   So if surface tension is the culprit, try  a surfactant such as Amway LOC or simply dish soap?

[RichColvin]

I am interested in knowing from the experts :  is water needed at the point where the cutting edge is sharpened (I.e., for cooling), or merely for keeping the wheel cool & for washing away the swarf ?

I ask as Eldon drove a thought about what would happen if too much surfactant were added and little or no water was drawn to the sharpening site. 

Rich

[cbwx34]

I am interested in knowing from the experts :  is water needed at the point where the cutting edge is sharpened (I.e., for cooling), or merely for keeping the wheel cool & for washing away the swarf ?

I ask as Eldon drove a thought about what would happen if too much surfactant were added and little or no water was drawn to the sharpening site. 

Rich

I'm no 'expert' but will tell you my experience... one thing I tested in this was no water at all... letting the stone soak up water, then turning it off to let the excess drain (I found that even with the trough removed, if I did it while the wheel was running, I would still get a bit of water build up/runoff)... then sharpening a knife.

I didn't notice the blade getting hot at all... but I quickly got a lot of swarf buildup, that I could see becoming more of a mess to deal with than having water runoff. 

So, I'd say it's more for keeping things clean... cooling would be secondary... at least as long as the wheel is at least a little 'wet'.  (Guess a completely dry stone could be tried... but kinda defeats the whole point). 

   So if surface tension is the culprit, try  a surfactant such as Amway LOC or simply dish soap?

If you do dish soap... I'd suggest very little... since the stone will stir the water...

[jeffs55]

The water is for washing away the swarf as you call it. I call it filings. After all, Rikon makes a "low speed" grinder that turns at a leisurely 1750 RPMs and has no cooling ability. The 90 RPMs of the Tormek would never heat anything to hot unless you applied tremendous pressure to the workpiece at which time the Tormek would not run anyway.

[Jan]

Movement of water caused by rotation of the grindstone partially immerged in water is quite complex matter. The surface tension describes cohesive forces of attraction acting between the water molecules near the water surface.

Other factor important for our considerations is the behavior at the water-stone interface. We have to know how the water adheres to the stone surface. In physics it is described by so called contact angle, which shows the stone wettability. 

Stone surface roughness has an effect on the contact angle.

All above mentioned is true in stationary case. For rotating stone the contact angle is different from its value at rest.

Jan