Hello knife people

[tomerus]

Hi Tormek people and fans,

My name is Tom and I`m from the Netherlands. I have an obsession with sharpening knives which I incurred the last year. Started with sharpening on water stones and really like it. Not the best at it but I can make a kitchen knife hair shaving sharp. Now I have sharpened most of my friends knives and would like to take it to the next step. I enjoy sharpening so much that I`m thinking of the idea of charging people for it and be a bit more serious about it overall. Now I have watched hours on end on Tormek videos on youtube the last year and I really need that machine. Not really really but I have to give myself a valid reason to buy one. That`s why I thought I could make some money with the Tormek. What is you guys take on that?
There are some "old school" sharpeners here in the Netherlands but they mostly use those big old wheel grinders freehand and are not even water cooled. Not saying I can do a better job but would already be happy if I can deliver the same quality.
I understand learning the Tormek would take time. I already have lots of questions and hope you nice people can help me with that in the near future. Willing to learn and listen.
I hope to buy the Tormek T8 next month. It`s a big investment for me and really need to save up some money. Can buy the T4 already but with the semi professional sharpening plans I thought it would be a good idea to go for the T8.
Well that was it in a nutshell. Thank you for your time and sorry for the bad English.

Tom

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Tom.

If you look at the first post in the Tormek General Questions (Tips and Techniques), you will find my advice for new Tormek users. The topic has grown much too large. Reading just the first post will give you the flavor of it.

Basically, I recommend starting your Tormek training with a Blue Chip 3/4" (19mm) chisel, either Irwin or Marples, it is the same tool. I know you want to sharpen knives, however, you can learn much from one inexpensive chisel. The Irwin or Marples recommendation is very important; do not substitute another brand or size of chisel. This is exlained in the topic.

This size chisel fits easily in the SE-77 jig which is included with the T8. It lets you work with one large, easy to see bevel. You will learn the feel and sound of grinding with it. You will learn the necessary skills of using the TT-50 Truing Tool, stone grader, and leather honing wheel. you will become fluent with your Tormek. At that point, you have a head start working with knives.

Enjoy your happy task of learning the Tormek. Do not skimp on this learning stage. The time spent will serve you well. Keep posting your successes and questions.

Ken

[Dutchman]

Welkom Tom
On Wootz' website you can find the following info on his pricing: http://knifegrinders.com.au/02Prices.htm
Succes met het opstarten van je onderneming.
Ton

[cbwx34]

Welcome to the forum.

My recommendation is to find some "practice" knives to start with and learn on... knives that you don't mind making mistakes on.  This goes with my next tip... learn to fix knives with damage.  You will undoubtedly encounter chips, broken tips, uneven bevels, etc. so on those same practice knives, learn how to fix damaged knives... at least minor damage.  Many of these can be easily fixed on the Tormek.

Learn to sharpen freehand on the Tormek.  While the jigs, guides, etc. can be used, its worthwhile to learn to do some work freehand.

Visit the "Sharpening Made Easy" website.  Lots of information there.  There's even a "Sharpening School In a Box" package that you might find worthwhile.

I'll second Dutchman's advice... forum member wootz has a lot of good information on his site.... http://knifegrinders.com.au/.

Ask questions and... Good luck!

[cbwx34]

I hope to buy the Tormek T8 next month. It`s a big investment for me and really need to save up some money. Can buy the T4 already but with the semi professional sharpening plans I thought it would be a good idea to go for the T8.

I'll add one more thing, related to this, as I was sharpening a knife this a.m.  It depends on your definition of "semi-professional", but if you're thinking of this being a part time or occasional endeavor, the T-4 is more than adequate for the task.  I got one a few months ago, and have taken it to friend's house to sharpen knives... does the job.

SteveB (the owner of the sharpeningmadeeasy site), took one to a job a while back, and had a couple of comments about it, you can read here... one being the leather wheel was too small, however the T-2 has a slanted honing wheel, that could be used on the T-4, as a workaround (or hone with an alternative method).

Just giving you something to think about... I think a part time business could be run with the T-4... and you could always "upgrade" later, if the business took off... (and less money spent if for some reason it doesn't work out).

[Elden]

   Ken's words of wisdom are sound and well grounded. While knives are readily available for a little money or free, there are things that are easily seen and learned while dealing with the wider face bevel of a bench chisel. Becoming well acquainted with the Tormek being one reason.
   The grinding results of changing the grinding wheel back and forth between coarse and fine (also the in between grits and the coarse, straight after the trueing tool) are more easily seen on a bench chisel than a knife. There are things available (microscopes, USB scopes, edge testor, etc.) that allow the edge to be seen and analyzed, however, the bevel is more easily seen with the naked eye on a bench chisel. Most individuals, probably, are not ready to pay for these extras after laying down their money for a Tormek for a while. While they are not necessities for knife sharpening, we sure see them discussed here on the forum (the rest of us who do not have them, tend to remain silent!  ).
   Usually the first building project for a carpenter is not a skyscraper.

[Ken S]

Well stated, as always, Elden!

Ken

[cbwx34]

   Ken's words of wisdom are sound and well grounded. While knives are readily available for a little money or free, there are things that are easily seen and learned while dealing with the wider face bevel of a bench chisel. Becoming well acquainted with the Tormek being one reason.
   The grinding results of changing the grinding wheel back and forth between coarse and fine (also the in between grits and the coarse, straight after the trueing tool) are more easily seen on a bench chisel than a knife. There are things available (microscopes, USB scopes, edge testor, etc.) that allow the edge to be seen and analyzed, however, the bevel is more easily seen with the naked eye on a bench chisel. Most individuals, probably, are not ready to pay for these extras after laying down their money for a Tormek for a while. While they are not necessities for knife sharpening, we sure see them discussed here on the forum (the rest of us who do not have them, tend to remain silent!  ).
   Usually the first building project for a carpenter is not a skyscraper.

Everything in your post can be learned just by sharpening a knife... no chisel, microscopes, etc. needed.  The problem I see with this chisel idea,,,, you're learning to sharpen something that is totally different... different jig needed, different design, different approach to the wheel, different steel, different movement... to name a few.  It's like saying, to learn the clarinet, you must first learn the piano.

The "skyscraper" analogy doesn't really apply either... moving from chisel to knife is learning something different... not necessarily more complicated.  If it were true, then a person who knows how to sharpen a knife on the Tormek, should, without knowing anything about how a chisel is sharpened, or the jig used, be able to pick one up and sharpen it correctly... do you think that's possible?

If a wide bevel is so important... why not just recommend a wide bevel knife to start with?  At least you'd still be learning the right jig, movement, etc.

I'll stick with what I said,,, want to sharpen knives... learn on knives... a chisel sharpener does not a knife sharpener make. 

[brettgrant99]

What part of the Netherlands are you in?  I spent last summer in Eindhoven. I would look for some turners or a turning club that might have a tormek that you could try out.  Or look for a used one.

Good luck.
Brett

[grepper]

I would humbly suggest that if you want to learn to sharpen knives, get a bunch of cheap sacrificial knives from your local thrift store to practice with and have at it.  At least that's what I did.  If you are sharpening for other people, no doubt sooner or later you will need to:

Learn to sharpen so that you don't concave the blade at the center.
Learn to sharpen the tip and maintain an even bevel.
Learn to fix a broken off tip.
Learn to deal with chips on the edge that you will see all of the time with hard steel knives like Shun.
Learn to flatten the edge if it's not flat.
Learn all about using the stone grader and how various levels of abrasiveness grind an edge.
Learn how you need to constantly use the stone grader to maintain a particular level of abrasivness.
Learn all about the truing tool and keeping the wheel flat.
Learn how to sharpen curved knives like a bird's beak knife.
Learn how to sharpen very hard steel (RHC 60+) knives.
Learn how to sharpen cheap, crappy steel knives without the edges chipping away.
Learn about toothy vs smooth ground edges.
Learn how smooth edge roll and get dull quickly.
Learn how to sharpen very small blades like pen knives.
Learn how with small blades the knife jig hits the wheel.  Learn to deal with it.
Learn about sharpening blades with unequal or single side bevels.
What about serrated blades?
Learn how to sharpen very long knives.
Learn how to sharpen cleavers.
Learn when to bail and recognize knives you can't sharpen.
Sooner or later someone will ask you to sharpen a pizza cutter.

Take a knife, grind the edge completely flat and then sharpen it.

Last, but maybe it should be first on the list, learn about deburring and how important it is.
Learn how much compound you want to use on the leather wheel.
Learn how much the compound smoothes a toothy edge if a toothy edge is what you want.

With one exception, I completely agree with Mr. cbwx34; learn to sharpen knives on the Tormek by sharpening knives on the Tormek. 

The exception is that a microscope and an edge sharpness tester are invaluable in learning about sharpening.  With those instruments you can lean more in a couple of months than years of sharpening without them.  Those instruments allow you to really understand and actually prove what is going on at the edge rather than just speculating about it.  For instance, a microscope allows you to see a burr and understand exactly how your burr removal method is working.  An edge sharpness tester demonstrates how the burr affects sharpness.  An edge sharpness tester allows you to understand and numerically represent the sharpness of your blade and how different sharpening procedures affect sharpness.  You don't need those instruments to get a sharp edge, but if you really want to understand what is happening they are amazing instruments.  For example, here's a post about when I tried to duplicate a commercial kitchen knife edge: http://bessex.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=68

Anyway, that's one way to go about it. 

[tomerus]

Wow, I have never had a welcome this big on any board. Thank you all for your input and advice. I`m going to follow up on all. I thought I had to learn a lot with sharpening on waterstones but sharpening on the Tormek is at least evenly demanding. I think I`m going to give myself a good year to really get the Tormek and all of its ways. I have no illusion I have it all figured out in a month.
Maybe I can even find a sort of mentor who can show me some techniques first hand later down the road.

For now I`ll be studying the forum and its the wonderful posts. Again thanks for the welcome and the words of advice.

[Ken S]

Tom,

I am starting to feel like Martin Luther at a Vatican Council advocating my chisel idea.      However, here I stand.

Learning to sharpen with the Tormek does not require an arduous apprenticeship. Sharpening well does require acquiring some basic skills. Using the example mentioned of learning to play the clarinet; No clarinetist is required to also be a concert pianist. However, every student in a music conservatory is required to have mastered at least minimum skills on a piano in order to graduate. I am not suggesting a "double major" in knives and chisels. I am suggesting that a basic chisel is the easiest edged tool to learn to sharpen and that the skills learned with the chisel transfer to any edged tool. A chisel has a straight, flat bevel. It has only one bevel. The bevel is large enough to be easily examined. The 3/4" width fits in the jig easily and the long, wide back makes setting with the Anglemaster easy. The steel used in chisels is easily ground with the standard SG Tormek wheel.

The SE-77 square edge jig is included with the T8. The Irwin Blue Chip chisels I recommend as learning tools are inexpensive. I have paid an average of $8 US for them and probably have a dozen. One is adequate, although having a second allows visual comparison.

Having one of these chisels nearby is valuable for those inevitable times when sharpening is not going well. If you can sharpen your chisel, the difficulties are not with your Tormek or your grinding wheel. This is a very efficient troubleshooting practice.

Most of us, like you, have begun working with the Tormek with sharpening skills learned with bench stones. By spending some time with a chisel, when you sharpen your first knife, you will recognize the sound and feel of good grinding. You will know that your water bath is working well. You will know that your grinding wheel is true and graded properly for your intended task. You will know how to check your bevel angle setting with a black marker.

This background will give you confidence and allow you to focus on the actual knife grinding part of the process.

Before closing, I would like to comment on the T4. I have used a T4 for several years. I have found it a useful and underrated tool. Having used a T4, T7 and T8, I believe over ninety percent of our members using the larger size Tormek models would be just as satisfied with a T4. One argument for it that I reject is the alleged cost savings. When calculating the cost of any Tormek, you must include the cost of a TT-50 truing tool. Any grindstone will wear and need to be retrued eventually. (Eventually is sooner than you think.) I have never liked Tormek's price point marketing by not including the TT-50 with the T4. As much as I like the compact T4, I think you are probably best served with a new T8. I would emphasize new. As a new user, unless you are fortunate enough to have a mentor to help guide you, starting with a new unit gives you the full protection of Tormek's outstanding seven year warranty. It also eliminates potential problems from past use and starts you out with the present state of the art in Tormek machines, jigs and accessories. Although the Tormek jigs I purchased eight years ago still work as wellas ever, most have been superceded by improved models. Give yourself every sdvantage when you begin.

I respect the thoughts of our learned knife oriented members, many of whom have considerably more knife sharpening experience than I do. That stated, I stand with my belief in the wisdom of beginning with a chisel.

Ken

[cbwx34]

By spending some time with a chisel, when you sharpen your first knife, you will recognize the sound and feel of good grinding. You will know that your water bath is working well. You will know that your grinding wheel is true and graded properly for your intended task. You will know how to check your bevel angle setting with a black marker.

Again, everything "learned" with the chisel, can be learned with a knife.... with the advantage of using the actual knife jigs & techniques.   

You probably have some good points about the T-8... but $490 (T-4 + TT-50) vs. $719 (T-8) (prices found on the net this a.m.)... is not an "alleged" savings.  I think the real advantage of the T-8 is a wider wheel to work on (and will last longer if you plan on sticking with it, or have a lot of business).

How funny, you made the clarinet/piano example fit.  (That'll teach me to make analogies on something I don't know about...). 

[Ken S]

Tom,

I like our members and guests to be able to make informed choices. You certainly have lots of information here! All is well intentioned. I would not say that any of it is wrong. Purchasing a Tormek is a long term investment. Since purchasing my Tormek, I have switched vehicles and houses. There are no wrong choices with Tormek, only choices which may suit your needs better. You must make your own choices in which Tormek you want and in how you wish to train yourself.

As you have seen already, we are a civil community that can disagree politely. I hope youwill remain active. I have learned a lot from the forum members, and will continue to do so. I hope you do, also, and that you will share the knowledge you gain.

Welcome aboard.

Ken

[tomerus]

Well what happened today was the following.. I went to see a store which sells Tormek. Talked to the owner and asked if I could get a little demo. After getting everything explained (already knew the most but nice to hear it from another) he asked what I`m gonna use it for mostly.. and I said strictly knife sharpening. He said in that case I`ll make you a deal. He kept the chisel jig which comes with the T8 in the box and gave me the 2 knive jigs brand new (see photo) and a bit extra discount as well. Thought it was a bit of a now or never moment and bit the bullet.
It`s standing on the dinner table now looking at me, and I`m eyeballing back of course. Saturday is my day off and going to give it a go. There`s a nice DVD in the box and a rather thick manual that I will be studying intensively

So Ken I am absolutely not neglecting your advise to start off with a chisel but this came on my way so to speak. Sorry about that..

Thanks all again for all the input and I WILL keep you posted on things.