Quickly Setting the Angle when using the Knife Jig(s)

[Herman Trivilino]

First, as seen in the Picture 1 (right photo), I establish a mark on the inside of the wheel, where I can line it up with a chopstick attached to the handle, (use what I have lying around, haha).

Brilliant idea!

If you remove the grindstone and lay it down flat so that you can measure the angles between the radial lines, do they match what you got using the Angle Master measurements?

[cbwx34]

There is some advantage to using a pointer and reference mark to quickly index the wheel to an exact position. I tried a couple of other ways, but I'm sure as most of you here already know, it doesn't take much change to affect the angle, so it has to be pretty "dialed in".

Not sure about measuring the angles as you're asking?  If you're thinking along the lines of how Steve Bottorff marks the wheel... no it won't measure in that way.  As has already been shown though... the angle part of this is a bit of a bust, since the "projection length" affects the result.

Still, I'll probably pursue this off the horizontal support... since the error isn't too significant, and for most knives it wouldn't matter.  Maybe get a better idea of how the projection length affects it.  Off the vertical support though, I'm thinking it might be too large to quickly adjust for.  It could be dealt with... but would probably be simpler at that point to just use the AngleMaster.

[Herman Trivilino]

Not sure about measuring the angles as you're asking?

I'll post some pictures of it when I get a chance.

[Jan]

Two years ago I have modified the TTS-100 for Knife jig. https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2639.30

It was designed for kenjig projection length 139 mm and bevel angle 15°. Later bevel angles 10°, 12.5°, 17.5° and 20° were added.

First picture shows my prototype. The second and third picture show more advanced versions manufactured by my friends from a local knife.cz forum. The last picture shows a setter printed on a 3D printer.

Jan

[Ken S]

Jan,

I really like the 3D printer version of the jig. It is simple, direct, and seems very cost effective to me. All three of the jigs you show auto correct for grinding wheel wear. That is an improvement over my very simple baltic birch plywood jigs OVER THE LONG RUN. My plywood jigs can be corrected for wheel wear, however, this requires very occasional adjusting by lengthening the groove. This is a simple procedure, but is not automatic. The two bearing wheels do this elegantly. Tormek designed and patented the two point compensation. It is incorporated into the TTS-100 for turning tools and works "a treat" (UK English idiom for very well). I have never understood why Tormek never expanded this technology for other tools.

Tim, be sure to read the entire topic Jan referenced. It begins with photos and a description of my Substitute Target idea. The Substitute Target is a rectangular piece of flat metal 1.25mm thick. The thickness corresponds with the native groove of the knife jig. When substituted for a knife in the knife jig, and set for the 139mm Projection, it provides a very user friendly large flat surface for the Anglemaster.

The common thread of all these jig setting ideas (yours, mine, Jan's, et. al.) is to provide a repeatable, accurate, less tedious option to using the Anglemaster. I include the black marker in this group. The Anglemaster is a useful, essential tool. It works very well for setting up large, flat surfaces like chisels and bench plane blades. It can be tedious for small bevels such as knives. STRONG LIGHT IS ESSENTIAL! If the lighting is your work area is less than superb, a good LED flashlight or magnetic light can make life more pleasant.

I generally try to limit my use of the Anglemaster to the first set up of a given tool. Even then, I try to use the black marker method or Dutchman's tables. Once you learn how to use them (they are not difficult), they become an invaluable resource. I prefer to use simple kenjigs for repeat sharpening.

I encourage you to continue developing your chopsticks technique. The mental exercise is good and future more successful results may await you, often in unanticipated ways. I had an idea to use Robin Bailey's extended support bar to use the horizontal sleeves in a grinding into direction. (This would simulate dry grinding technique with a Tormek.) My idea was brilliant; it just didn't work. Water cascaded from the trough. oops....... I revived the idea when I started wirking with CBN wheels. They can be used wet or dry. Used dry, the extended support bar worked very well.

So, do not forget your ideas. They may prove useful later.

Keep thinking!

Ken

[cbwx34]

Jan... thanks for the link.  I'm reading through the whole thread, so may take some time.  (Also some of your pictures seem to be missing, which, while not impossible, makes it a bit harder to follow).

Just out of curiosity... has anyone ever just marked the Universal Support to quickly set the distance?  It would seem that marking the support might be an alternative way to set it vs. the Kenjig.  (BTW, I don't at all think the Kenjig is a bad idea... just thinking of a way of setting multiple distances).  My idea would be to mark it, for example, with a letter indicator, that could then be matched to the chart similar to the "Grinding Angle Adjustment" booklet.  Then as the wheel wears, flip the page to show the new dimensions, and corresponding letter.  Initial setup might take a bit of time, but once done, it would last as long as the machine.  Just an idea.

Edit to add:  In thinking about the "Kenjig" a bit more... if I were to insure that the knife is set at approximately the same "projection length" (which the Kenjig requires anyway)... then I could use the marks on the wheel (in either direction) to set whatever angle I would want as I was doing before... correct?  I just need to include the projection length into it, (and no need for the actual jig to set the support distance).
(Don't let this detract from the "marking the Univ. Support" question though, still curious about that too).

[Jan]

Cbwx, I am not aware that anyone has marked the USB. I think it is a good idea. 

Wootz, a very inventive Australian sharpener, posted an interesting angle setting method based on the height of the USB above the Tormek housing. It may be inspiring for you. https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2969.msg15703#msg15703

To your last question: the bevel angle is generally defined by three variables, e.g.
1)   wheel radius
2)    projection length
3)   USB – stone distance.

[bisonbladesharpening]

I sharpen for many food service operations and do from paring knives to chef's
and long slicers, cleavers etc.  The more jigs the better so you don't have to move the support arm.
I sharpen away from a knife and am able to look down on my work easily.  I identify a point on the top right tightening knob (T8) and set it as my standard 15 degrees to set up a knife.
I can adjust from the jigs for many knives from there and add secondary finish bevels just by turning the jig end a turn clockwise.
Same concept but I'm just setting a different reference point and eyeballing.   Still need to move the arm for some work but minimizes it.
Best Wishes
Tim

[Ken S]

Tim,

Here is a link to Robin Bailey's extended support bar for the Tormek. It is both taller and longer than the Tormek version. For routine work, I use the Tormek bar. For my Chinese cleaver, Robin's bar is "just the ticket". If I had long slicers, I would use Robin's bar for them, too.

Must dash..more tomorrow.

Ken

https://www.sharpening-service.co.uk/onlineshop/prod_4360851-Tormek-Extended-Universal-Support-Bar.html

[cbwx34]

I may be glad Part 1 "failed", 'cause Part 2...



... coming soon!   

(Get your red "grading pens" ready!)
(Plus, I may need help "dialing it in"... if it turns out it's even feasible). 

[cbwx34]

So, the next version may turn out no better than the last... definitely would have to take "quick" out of the setup.



My thought was to "approximate" the slope of the stone in the angle area most commonly sharpened at for example 15˚-25˚ (I know it's not a real slope, but hopefully get the idea), which would allow for a quick angle change.  Anyway, it works... but I can't find any real rules for the setup... just sort of hit/miss to dial it in.  And since there's several variables to account for (distance of base support, angle of 2nd support, projection length, wheel size, etc.), that changing one starts it all over.  (And only works on the horizontal support... not seeing it on the vertical).  If anyone has any idea on dialing it in somehow... love to hear it.  After many trials, I can occasionally hit on a setup that works well... (or I can just set up for one particular knife and angle, which isn't that hard, but not 'quick')... but change one aspect, and it throws it all off.... 

Problem is, I like the setup...  where it puts the knife in relation to the stone (and me)... very comfortable position and dynamics to sharpen with.  There's some other "logistical" issues (for example, probably need a longer base Universal Support), but not to that point yet.

I read the link to the other thread Jan posted (several times)... to be honest, can't totally figure it out.  I understand it in principle, (sort of I guess), but can't for example figure out where the "29.3" measurement comes from?  Anyway, if there's a clue in there to what I'm doing... not seeing it.  Guess my math skills are rusty... 

Still working with it though... input appreciated! 

[Jan]

Cbwx, congrats, it is a very nice setup which is based on original Tormek components only! 

It works correctly for horizontally positioned blade and properly oriented grindstone with angular marks. The blade horizontality may be a minor difficulty of this setup's because it may require to adjust both USBs when the projection length has changed. The adjustable stop may help to avoid the necessity to change the USBs setup.

Please be so kind and remind me where I have used the "29.3" value you have quoted. I have already forgotten where it was. 

Jan

[Airplanedoc]

Jan,

Do you still have access to the file you used to 3d print the jigs that you made?

[Jan]

I have neither the file nor the setter. It was prepared by my colleague from a local Knife.cz forum. I use the aluminium model with contact ball bearings.

Jan

[cbwx34]

Cbwx, congrats, it is a very nice setup which is based on original Tormek components only! 

It works correctly for horizontally positioned blade and properly oriented grindstone with angular marks. The blade horizontality may be a minor difficulty of this setup's because it may require to adjust both USBs when the projection length has changed. The adjustable stop may help to avoid the necessity to change the USBs setup.

Please be so kind and remind me where I have used the "29.3" value you have quoted. I have already forgotten where it was. 

Jan

Thanks.  It is one of the goals to sorta "stay within the system".

The "29.3" was from this post by wootz https://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2969.msg15686#msg15686 (from the thread you posted the link to earlier).