Tormek T-2000 Supergrind upgrade kit

[Elden]

   While checking out the T7 led promotional that Steve mentioned, I stumbled upon an upgrade kit for the Supergrind models. Included are:

  · XB-100 Horizontal Base
  · US105 Universal Support with Micro Adjust
  · MSK250 Stainless Steel Shaft with EzyLock
  · AWT250 Advanced Water Trough
  · AT250 Original Grindstone
  · HB10E Updated Handbook

   The price with free shipping included through that particular supplier, is currently $315 USD. They are all factory pieces and the price is presumably $70 USD less than individual price total.

   For one like me facing replacing a cracked grinding wheel and shaft because of  the "Rusted Drive Shaft Syndrome", the price is somewhat better. For $84 USD more, one could buy a T4. Ouch!

[Ken S]

Interesting dilemma, Eldon.  Unlike some decisions, neither option seems like a real loser.

However, (you knew this, coming from me), I would be inclined to lean toward the new T4. When all is said and done, the T4 is lighter and smaller. The difference, especially in weight, is very noticeable.

Do not be tempted to go for a bargain T3. It does not handle heat well. The T4 makeover really is substantial.

If you should go the new T7 route, you could either sell your present Supergrind or have it as a fully functional spare. I don't do planer blades or grind exotics, however, I am convinced the T4 is quite up to those tasks, especially when equipped with either a Norton 3X wheel or a CBN wheel. The eight inch diameter CBN wheels seem to run about 30% less in cost than their larger brothers. For fifty bucks, you could be in the driver's seat with a 3X.

The handbook which comes with the T4 is identical to the T7 handbook. I was initially surprised by this, however, it makes sense. If you did some inquiring, you might even be able to find a dealer who would be having a sale during a tool show.

Keep us posted about your thought process and decision.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

Ken, get your reading glasses! (I think you missed it)
Not likely to get a lot for a 2000 minus stone, and with a cracked grindstone, it doesn't sound like a fully functional spare.

Mine suffered the rusted shaft, but the grindstone wasn't cracked. The previous owner, chipped the stone, getting it off the shaft, and bought a new stone.
I picked up the stainless shaft, and the new water tray and downloaded the new book. (Tormek's site, think the PDF is exactly the same).  Just the shaft, water tray, and a new stone, comes up to $295, so I think your $70 off, is before the sale that brings it down to $315.

I've been interested in the HB upgrade, as I figured I would use the old one, with a bench grinder for initial shaping for turning tools.  Just having done it yet.

If you want to see ouch, then check the auction site, as there are two Tormeks that have been on my local CL for some time, that are now there.  One still shows a picture of the receipt with the price from Jeff's Grain Valley location (LONG ago, 2004) square frame 2000, $369.  You will see what they are asking now; when they were on CL around here, they started around $550.
Personally, I would do the upgrade, verses the new machine, UNLESS, you have a square frame model 2000.

[Ken S]

You may be right about the upgrade, SADW. However, at the end of the day you still have an old motor, switch, drive wheel, honing wheel and probably a rusty frame. None of these might actually act up, however just one of these needing replacement or repair would eliminate the cost difference compared with a newT4. With a new T4 you have the minor improvements such as the new rubberlike material on the drive wheel which transmits the power more efficiently. You get an ironclad seven year warranty. And, most importantly, this all is in a smaller, much lighter package.

You are correct,SADW. I must have overlooked the cracked grinding wheel with my reading glasses. That would, or at least should, impact resale. Omit my thought about resale or a fully functioning spare.

Elden, I do stick with my original premise that neither choice is a real loser. I also think that this is probably your best chance costwise to upgrade to a T4. Using it from a wheelchair, I think you would be pleasantly amazed with the difference in weight and bulk. I know there are some negative feelings on the forum toward the T4. I base my positive feelings on actual experience using it in my shop. I realize the critics mean well and they have  not had the opportunity that I have had to use both machines. That is understandable, but does not alter the fact that much of the T4 criticism comes from those who have not used it.

If you decide to purchase a T4 sight unseen, be sure to verify that you can return it for a full refund and preferably with no shipping cost. Amazon may have that no shipping cost return privelage. Check with your dealer of choice. (Too bad Jeff's business in Missouri is not still a going concern.) I would be most surprised if you decided to return a T4.

Do not feel time pressured by the time factor of the special deal savings. All you really need is the grind stone and shaft. The larger water trough is nice to have, but certainly not essential. So is the micro adjust shaft. The latest edition of the handbook, which keeps changing, is available online and not much different than your earlier edition. My offer for my spare older XB-100 is still good.

In another topic it is correctly noted that the 3X wheels are not the same as a CBN wheel. However, for only fifty bucks, a 3X gives the T4 a lot of firepower for coarse grinding with hard steels.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I believe your best investment is the T4. 

Ken

[Elden]

   Thanks for the replies Ken and Randal. At the current time, the T4 is shining pretty brightly. Ken your posts have been influential. Contrary to the thought of the cracked wheel rendering it as not a fully functioning backup unit, I have used it that way very shortly after getting it. The grinding wheel has worn away more quickly due to the necessity of more frequent trueing.

   One other factor I did not mention, the plastic hub of the drive wheel is cracked. That would add another $73 USD. It may hold up for years no more than I use it or it could give out "muy pronto".

   Ken, I don't plan a move anytime in the near future. The fact that the 8" Norton wheels that I already have would be a good match for the T4, is a big plus. I was glad to see the release of your thoughts and research of your Norton wheel experimentation.

[Ken S]

Elden,

I am a person who has kept my old vehicles much too long. I tend to put more than is logical in fixing things. As I am sure you have noticed, replacement Tormek parts, like most specialized replacement parts, are expensive. If the plastic hub of the drive wheel goes, you would be dead in the water. I have also read instances of the starting capacitor going bad. That is probably not such a big deal, but I would not like the prospect of a dead motor. No doubt you could get either fixed locally at a motor repair shop, but it still adds up.

The Norton wheels are a great adjunct for the Tormek. They will require some simple modification of the bore bushings. A stainless steel bushing with 12mm opening would be the Cadillac way to do it. For me in Chevy land, reaming out a short piece of 5/8" OD schedule 80 plastic pipe with a 31/64" bit does the trick. If this is not easy for you to procure, let me know and I will send you a few. I have some pipe leftover. Making one takes less time than writing this post. I suggest having a couple spares, in case one goes AWOL. The same procedure with either a 40 or 50mm length is nice to have for transporting the Tormek with the grinding wheel removed. It keeps things from falling apart. (I speak from experience!)

I have not trued my Norton wheels. They seem OK as is. I am a little gun shy about trying to true them with the Tormek truing tool. I may someday get up the courage to try using a diamond strip I have. Or, if I am feeling really nervy, I may try the Tormek tool.

Ignore the fifty per cent duty nonsense with the motor. it is a good, solid motor and, if you are like me, you will conk out long before the motor might need a rest. All your jigs will work fine with the T4. Incidentally, I questioned both Stig and Affinity Tool, the US Tormek importer, about Tormek's policy if a motor conked out after six and a half years. In both cases they told me that Tormek would send a prepaid shipping label, replace what is needed, while also making the works "Bristol Fashion" and pay for the return shipping, all in a short period of time. (Most US repairs are actually done at Affinity Tool, and they are very rare.) The only thing not covered is wear on the grinding wheel, which seems fair.

Whatever you decide to do, please keep us posted. If you go the T4 route, we could use a veteran Supergrind user reporting on the T4.

Ken

[Herman Trivilino]

This thread raises an interesting option for use of the T4. One that had never occurred to me. If you have enough broken parts on your old SuperGrind 2000, such as a bent main shaft and broken grindstone, the purchase of a T4 to replace it may be the ideal solution. You have all the jigs and the truing tool on hand, so you are good to go.

[Ken S]

I had a similar situation with my 2008 iMac. I did not know it initially, however, the hard drive went bad. i could have had it repaired, although at the time I did not know if that was the extend of the trouble. In this case, the cost of replacing the hard drive versus the cost of a new iMac was much greater than the Tormek upgrade kit vs the new T4. I, I should say we, my wife and I,had had a lot of trouble with undersized PCs in the past. The prospect of future computer outages did not bode well for the domestic tranquility. The new iMac has numerous internal improvements, some of which matter and some of which don't seem of much consequence. It has much more RAM and it started with the present Apple operating system. I expect good longevity. Replacement seemed the wise choice.

Admittedly the Tormek is a much simpler machine than a computer. However, if you read Jeff's Blog on the sharptoolsusa website, there have been numerous improvements over the years. I would not dump a perfectly functioning older Tormek for these latest bells and whistles. However, when faced with a cracked (but working) grinding wheel; a rusted shaft (and probable rusted housing; and a known future problem at some point with the drive wheel, replacement seems the logical choice.

When the T4 first arrived, i did not have much time to actually use it. I did have short bursts of time to examine it. I was surprised with how similar it is to the T7. I would SWAG that around half the parts are actually the same. Even the stainless Steel EZYlock shaft is the same diameter. It is just a little shorter. In my opinion, tormek did cut a couple corners to meet the price projection. The easy to unscrew knob holding the leather wheel was replaced with a simple nut. it is adequate, but I found it annoying when I removed the leather honing wheel to clean behind it. I replaced it with the T7 knob ordered from sharptoolsusa. The EZYlock nut on the T4 is plastic instead of steel. They are interchangeable, and the plastic nut seems like it will go the distance; I just don't like it. Eventually I will probably replace it, however, it is certainly not necessary when purchased.

The only difference I have noticed in jigs and accessories is that the universal support is ten millimeter shorter. This is to compensate for the 40mm thick grinding wheel so that the tool in the square edge jig won't fall off the end.

My tests have indicated that the T4 cuts as quickly as the T7. I have not noticed a problem with heat, although at my age, I am no marathon sharpener.

The biggest difference I notice is with the weight. The T4 is solid and weighs enough, but weighs only about half the weight of the T7. Sitting on a sharpening station, this is a mute point. However, when transporting the weight difference is a delight. Especially if the grinding wheel is dismounted, the T4 is a dream to carry. As with the T7, leaving the grinding wheel on while moving it causes it to be unbalanced, as well as putting stress on the shaft.

I believe you will be delighted with the T4, Elden.

Ken

[Elden]

   The throwaway age is troubling aspect. Thankfully parts are available for the older machines. However, it would be interesting to assemble a T7 from the parts list on paper.  I  imagine there would be a 200 to 300% price increase over current unit retail. John Deere is a big player in this game as well as many others. It goes against my grain to set aside the Supergrind even if it is an old square frame model. Herman showed that a rusty frame can be restored if it remains solid. On the the bright side of it, I guess it keeps the landfills and salvage yards in strong financial operation.

[Ken S]

I totally agre, Elden. This throwaway age is troubling. What I find especially troubling is when perfectly good items are cast off simply because they are not  the latest buzz, when no debate was held about the suitability of the former item. In the case of your Supergrind, it has given many years of good service and has reached the point where repair is cost prohibitive.

Ken

[SharpenADullWitt]

The broken plastic drive wheel wasn't mentioned.  Kind of hard to make "fully" informed suggestions, if one isn't.
A lot of the Tormek's I have seen used, don't have the rusted frame issue, but may have a rusted shaft issue (never pulling the stone off for regreasing).  I am NOT a fan of the throwaway issue and still think this is definitely worthwhile, but the reason I mentioned the square frame model is some old posts I saw here, which talked about sharpening and clearance issues, verses the newer shape.  If ones chassis were rusted, the wheel and bar as mentioned, it would seriously make me wonder about buying a new frame and then we are talking, IMHO the T4 would be more cost effective.  Even then, I might compare the motors of the T4 and the T2000, and see if the heavier motor would fit in the T4.

[Ken S]

Interesting point about the square frame clearance, SADW. I had not thought of that. That would certainly be a negative factor in deciding whether or not to invest much in repairs.

This is where a variable market comes to mind. A potential buyer who planned extensive use might wisely pass and keep looking. A buyer just wanting to sharpen his basic shop hand tools and kitchen and pocket knives might overlook the issues for the right price. I know these buyers exist because I have been one of them My twenty five dollar belt grinder is loud and not pretty. The dick grinder table is missing anf the motor cord and v belt needed to be replaced. Nothing beyond my modest home mechanic skills. It does the job.

Regarding the motor, when I arrived ffor the day I spent at the woodworking show in Hartville, Steve already had both the T7 and T4 running. As I recall, both ran most of the day. I do not recall the T4 being turned off. I would have remembered any mention of needing to turn the motor off to allow it to cool. I believe the real reason for the machined zinc top was to provide a radiator to radiate the motor heat. I have already posted my conversations on possible motor failure being covered during the seven year warrantee. Based on then, I conclude motor failure problem during the first seven years is not an issue.

My cutting speed experiment indicates to me that the T 7 and 4 have essentially the same cutting speed. The surface feet per minute calculations are essentially the same, the T4 being minutely higher.

Without bothering to go downstairs and awaken my family, I recall observing that the T7 motor is physically too long to fit in the T4 housing. Even if it was possible to switch motors, the heavier motor would negate much of the T4's real advantage, its light weight. I drive my Equinox the same way I drove my former full size pickup. It gets better gas mileage and fits in the garage more easily  The truck could haul more. Each model of the Tormek has its relative pros and cons. i really do believe the motor issue is more theory than an in the trenches problem.

I believe both that the old Supergrind has a lot of chisel, plane and knife grinding in it ANDthat Elden would be better served with a T4.

One of the things I appreciate about this forum is that deffering thoughts promote better knowledge. Very good observation about the square frame clearance.

Ken

[Elden]

   That is an interesting thought on the clearance situation. I have not found the frame to be in the way so far in what the unit has been used for. The leather honing wheel has been in the way numerous times and had to be removed. The grinding wheel has less than 200 mm remaining. Consequently, I find my fingers bumping the drive wheel occasionally.

[Ken S]

Interesting. The view from the man in the trenches. (I guess nowadays we would say "boots on the ground".)

Ken

[Kayaken John]

Subject : Upgrading the T - 2000. I am in the middle of making up my mine of the Upgrade. The post that I have read are making me think things all over. The post made me rethink the whole idea of what I want to do.   Thank You   Kayaken John