tech support? a question for the moderator or tormek

[Stickan]

If problems like this happens and we are closed, the agent in the users country are still open and they have been trained.
However, some problems are hard to find a reason for and then somebody at Tormek should be reachable.
I´ll do my best to check it and also the Tormek moderator does and has replied.

Kenny had really bad luck with this and I will do my best to help him.

Stig

[Ken S]

I believe the true measure of a company's customer service is how it handles the problem situations. I have mentioned my positive dealings with Lee Valley over the years.  Where Lee Valley really shined was when I ordered an air cleaner.  The unit arrived damaged.  It had been dropped in transit.  It was not Lee Valley's fault, however, Lee Valley stepped up to the plate and handled the situation to my satisfaction.  My already positive feelings toward Lee Valley have been increased ever since.

This is one of those problem situations for Tormek AB.  I am confident Stig will follow through and do right.

Ken

[kennyk]

Just to follow up,  Stig has been in touch,  and I'm now a lot less stressed, although my pile of blunt chisel and plane blades hasn't gone down as fast as I'd hoped by this point in tiime.   I'm confident that I'll get caught up fairly quickly.   There's still a little question over the USB but I hope that I'll get that resolved soon.

[Rob]

Good news all round :-)

[Ken S]

ditto Rob's comment!

Ken

[Ken S]

I believe Robin W's comment says a lot:

"Regarding previous comments about contacting distributers for help and/or training, I phoned D & M Tools , a distributer of Tormek and they do not do Tormek training. Brimarc the UK importer advised that they likewise do not undertake Tormek training as people would not pay the price. They have a representative who may be in Scotland possibly every 12 weeks or so, and if contacted that person may call in to a customer who has reported problems. I don't think kennyk (or indeed anyone else) can hold his breath that long!"

I don't mean to fault Tormek AB on this issue. Adding enough trained support personnel to the payroll to give "boots on the ground" support world wide would surely sink the company.  After all, Kenny's school is located within an hour of Glasgow, a major city.  He could just as likely been located near a sheep station in Australia or in among the woodcarvers in Truchas, New Mexico (a nice little town, but very remote).

We live in an age of distance learning.  It is truly astounding that a person on a sheep station or anywhere in the world with broad band can receive a university education online.  Compared with having fifty technical assist persons on the Tormek payroll, producing several you tubes in house seems miniscule.  Add to that the fact that these you tubes could easily be overdubbed in several languages.  What an amazing learning tool!

Look back over this forum.  The same issues keep popping up.  People have trouble using the stone grader.  The USB alignment puzzles new users.  Grinding chisels square is a perennial issue. I believe most of us are not completely comfortable using the leather honing wheel. These are all issues which can easily be handled with a session with a Tormek expert. I believe they are all issues which can be handled by a well done you tube.

For the sake of Tormek AB, I believe it is crucial that these you tubes be produced in house. Without such learning tools, I believe Tormek's greatest competition will be the used Tormek market from discouraged users.  We live in an age of instant learning expectations.

The Tormek does have a learning curve, as do all tools. The marketing videos ignore this and paint an unrealistic rosy picture. If Tormek produces videos dealing with the real world issues of learning how to use this fine product successfully, the end result will be happy users reluctant to sell their Tormeks on the used market. They would become Tormek's best advertisement. Also, if Tormek produces the videos, they won't be done by someone who might suggest a way to make a "comparable" machine at home with twenty dollars worth of scrap parts and an old motor.

We would all benefit from well done instructional videos.  The expectation today is that such videos be readily available at no cost on the Internet.  So be it.  I have no doubt that the marketing department will subtly project the message of Tormek quality and versatility into the instructional videos.  Why not? That's the way of the world, and, if the videos are genuinely instructional, we all benefit.  (Just make sure that the marketing department plays a minor role.)

I believe it makes sense to rely more on videos than on dealers for solving customer problems.  Most dealers (at least in the US) sell several brands of sharpening equipment, including several brands of wet grinders.  The dealer makes money regardless of the brand purchased. With very well done Tormek produced brands, the Tormek name remains predominant.

I believe Kenny might have experienced much less frustration if such instructional videos were available. The Lie-Nielsen company in Maine (USA) makes world class metal planes.  As part of their instructional you tubes, they discuss how to deal with play in the threaded adjusting wheels.  Does this mean their planes are inferior? Certainly not.  A certain amount of play in threads is just the nature of the beast.  Why not deal with it intelligently so that it will not create a problem? Dealing with grinding wheel wear and alignment problems are part of the nature of the sharpening beast.  Let's acknowledge this and move on as trained users.

Ken

[Rob]

Spot on Ken.  What you're opening up here is what I suspect is the age old tension between the sales side of the house and the engineering side.  Sales and marketing (operations) folks have an in built fear of allowing anything negative about the product to leak out into the market place.  The classic sales mindset is that by leading the prospect down a path which only exposes them to positive aspects of the product, they will ultimately overcome any natural resistance and/or objections and the decision to buy will be a "yes".  I have little doubt this would also be true of live demonstrations. The skilled demo artisan will know what "looks good" when in a (high risk) live situation and will focus on sharpening tools which show off the features to their best.  They will carefully avoid operations like sharpening planar blades because its difficult and time consuming.  Instead, knives, chisels, scissors etc will be what gets demo'd.

Engineering on the other hand who by the very nature of their function, deal with truths constantly.  You can't "flannel" a piece of steel and "talk it round" to become the shape you want when you're designing a jig!  The real world is hard and unyielding, only through a complete and utter acceptance of the true nature of material can you hope to persuade metals to adopt the geometry you want.  As a consequence, many if not all good engineers are rather quiet unassuming people.  They have a lot of humility because any trace of ego will be squashed out of them at the apprentice stage when their ego drives them to mistake after mistake.

My point.........engineers are kept away from customers with an almost religious like zeal because they might "spill the beans" and actually admit to the weaknesses.  Herein lies the classic mistake that marketing and sales people constantly make.  CUSTOMERS AREN'T STUPID.  And neither are prospects in the main.  They want to know how the thing really works, genuinely, sincerely and they can accept that a quality result is a journey.  That journey begins with acquiring the tools and then you layer on the skills.  Start small and grow the capability.

Its all in the positioning.  Marketing have decided that the message is "Tormek.....its a doddle to use and you'll get instant results".  In my opinion (for what its worth) the message should be:  "Tormek.....it's the best there is (heirloom quality being the comparator).  It will sharpen to perfection nearly every edge tool you own and we understand that, just like every worthwhile human endeavour, skills don't develop in 15 minutes, so we'll be with you every step of the way.  Our free training and support will mentor and coach you.......blah blah etc

If the tool is positioned honestly and the necessary detailed, close up instructional videos are created then these bear traps for new users will be managed and minimised.  Sales and marketing people....its OK to be honest, really and truly it is.  Until a company gets consistent with its core brand value then it will always be batting problems from one department to another.  The tension between revenue drivers and support fixers and ultimately customers will be an unhappy one.

But it needn't be.  Releasing detailed instructional videos for the SE76, SP650 and the honing wheel use....whats the cost of that?  £10K max if not less??  For the sake of substantially higher customer satisfaction, is that not a sensible investment?

[Herman Trivilino]

I could be wrong about this, but I have come to understand that Tormek doesn't do any training.  They don't set up training sessions or how-to classes for their customers or even as a marketing strategy for potential customers.

It could be that Tormek depends on its distributors for this.  If so, do they simply leave it up to them to carry out these training sessions and classes as an option?  In others words it's ok with Tormek if you're a distributor and you conduct no training sessions or classes?

I think there's a cultural shift occurring in our society that has escaped Tormek's marketing department.

I remember visiting hardware and lumber stores as a young adult in the 1970's and 1980's.  This was before we had home centers and I didn't realize it then but it was the very beginning of the do-it-yourself (DIY) movement.  At that time customers visiting one of these places were expected to know what they were looking for and how to use it.  If I went in there unsure of how to do something I'd get a funny look and very little help.  Fast forward to 2014.  Now customers in these places are not expected to know what they're doing or what they're looking for.  The sales staff is expected to guide the customer and help him or her to achieve success with the project.

[Rob]

The exponential growth in the software industry over the past 25 years has taught us a lot about how technical products are both marketed and supported.

Those products that are very sophisticated to use (like ERP systems and major back office business automation) require a clear and well thought through implementation strategy which involves business mapping, training and support. 

At the other end of the spectrum come the simple commodity products like a free download that allows you to test the speed of your broadband connection.  It only has 2 buttons so no training or support is needed.  But in the middle comes a massive range of products which everyone can benefit from either formal classroom based training or at the very least digital self paced training or the good old ubiquitous Youtube tutorials.  (I count MS Office in this category).

There is absolutely no question that the Tormek is sufficiently sophisticated (and versatile as a consequence) such that some aspects of its use merit a more formal approach to training than just the manual.....despite how comprehensive it is.  In fact, the very fact that the manual is so comprehensive is testament to the fact that Tormek AB understand the need for a significant learning curve being navigated to achieve mastery.

Whats changed is the expectation to have that content in a modern format.  Ie out of a book and into an online format.

[Stickan]

Herman:
Yes, you are wrong  We do have classes, in Sweden actually even at our HQ for teachers.

We also do store-demo´s and education in school´s by our self  but also with many of our agents around the world.

However, we have around 35 countries that sell Tormek and we are 2-3 persons trying to do our best to have demo´s and meet our customers.

Most of the agents are doing shows and store-demo's and even some stores has a Tormek in store with an staff trained.

We know that the stores needs education to learn about Tormek themselves and that's an ongoing work that we do all the time.

Stig

[Herman Trivilino]

Thanks for the reply, Stig.  It sounds to me like Tormek could benefit greatly by expanding these services and making sure that the dealers  in the individual countries each have their own training schemes in place.  I believe sales would increase in response.  I know, for example, that without the New Yankee Workshop episode I would probably never have made my purchase.  That was 12 years ago and the episode was in reruns at the time.  Nowadays consumers have been conditioned to expect more in the way of training and free classes.

I know many people who would be attracted by the idea of being able to sharpen their own household cutlery and their tools as well.  They just don't know where to start.

 

[Ken S]

Stig, since no rational person expects Tormek to add enough staff to the payroll to really cover all thirty five countries, why not have one of the classes you give at headquarters professionally videotaped?  As part of the production, different versions could be overdubbed in languages other than Swedish.  These videos could be posted on the Tormek website or this forum.  Your support staff could get the message out to many people at very little cost.  The video of the class would probably answer most questions.  The few remaining questions could be individually answered by our support staff and also posted on the forum for others to read.

Ken

[Rob]

Guys....YouTube is way ahead of you.  English was long ago accepted as the standard business language and has already been accepted as the universal language on YouTube.  Translation is generally not really needed I would suggest.  It's a significant cost and operational barrier to entry if you don't have direct operations in the territory (which Tormek don't) so don't bother with it.  Just tape the most succinct detailed training on the tricky things and upload that in max 15 minute bursts or preferably less.  People want consumable bulletins that focus on one topic.  So one on the SE76, one on the Stropping process, one on using the stone grader etc.  Short and focused on the solution with no long boring lectures.

All you need to do is take the video as Ken suggests and post it in high quality format on YT.  That will give people like Kenny a place to go and bone up on the tricky bits.  Jeff's turning videos are the sort of quality I'm talking about here.  Even they were on the salesy side and that was clearly their intent.  However they were sufficiently detailed to genuinely help me start grinding my tricky tools and in fact I downloaded them onto an ipad for use offline and had them in the workshop with me when I was starting.  It was like having a personal trainer in my workshop...very useful and far more consumable than the manual.

[Ken S]

Good points, Rob.  I purchased the DVD of sharpening and using turning tools before I purchased the jigs.  The DVD was instrumental in deciding to purchased the turning jigs, even though my lathe is not presently set up.

I agree with Rob that separate shorter, but still in depth you tubes on the SE-76, stone grader, and stropping process would cover most of the problems. I would expect them to be high quality and well edited.

Stig, I found a very well done more general video giving more background on the Tormek and the factory.  It included Hakan Persson.  I have been unable to locate it again.  Would you please post a link to it? I believe it would be of general interest to the forum. (After August 4 would be fine.)

Ken

[RobinW]

There is one sizeable woodworking show in Scotland per year, and I don't recollect seeing a Tormek being demonstrated last time. It's also not the right place to try and get enough time with an "expert" to tackle your own problems in detail. It is also amazing how many exhibitors do not have their equipment powered up and available for live demonstrations.

Through the Tormek site, it lists several stockists in Scotland - it would be interesting to know if they actually have any stock, and if any of their staff are trained and experienced enough to address the types of problems as typified by kennyk's recent posts on the SE-76.

Having visited some of these companies for other reasons, I doubt if they would do a demonstration. Strangely enough none of them are companies I would approach first, and probably through the power of the internet I would go to dealers in England. (This will be even more interesting if Scotland votes for independence in September.) I actually purchased my T7 from a company some 400 miles away.

I was in a local toolstore, very good for the things they do, and I did ask one time about getting a demonstration on some machines (bandsaw; planer-thicknesser; tablesaw) but they don't do such things (they are not alone with this business stance). I suggested that they could have a separated area away from the showroom with these machines set up and have say Saturday morning demo sessions (I would have been happy to do some) - but that didn't fit in and there was also some comment about insurance and safety issues.

At one large woodworking show a few years ago, I was in the market for a bandsaw. I was examining the bandsaw of a well known company, and pointed out that it was impossible to align the scale. The company representative said that the first thing he would do is drill out the holes to 3/8". So I politely informed him that I would not be spending £500 on one of his machines if the first thing I did was start drilling holes in the table!

At the show this year I was asking about differences in dust extractors, in particular the noise figures on two models. The company representative told me the figures and followed it in a condescending manner with "if that means anything to you". Unfortunately for him, it does as I have done many noise radiation tests on hydro-mechanical equipment, and I also understand the maths behind decibels. As a friend of mine would say, "He couldn't sell you a glass of water in the desert!"

Last year I had some joinery work to do which involved a tight tolerance framework to fit in a restricted space. I came to the conclusion that if I could have the various vertical and horizontal pieces pre-made and drilled, trial fitted, it would make life easier. So I looked into pocket hole jigs, and the videos available online about a well known make. Duly bought the kit, and I am delighted to say it worked straight out the box without any problems; exactly as per instructions; saved me a shed load of time and gave me a great fitting framework. The point of this comment is that the videos were great instructional aids, and the instructions were correct.

I am also the owner of a scraper plane from a well known good quality maker. It was bought at great expense for a particular job, which despite the instruction leaflet, I managed achieve. However on subsequent jobs and after re-sharpening in accordance with the instruction leaflet, I have been unable to get it to work properly. I recently went online and found several personal videos which covered sharpening and set up issues. After studying these I then had this tool working better than ever. It's sad that these videos were posted by individuals, not the manufacturer.

We are probably all in the same position of having to purchase tools and machines with little or no access to proper demonstration or testing, and have to rely on manufacturers' sales blurb, online searches and reports by others. Whilst this is half-a-step better than buying completely blind, my experiences as exemplified above, do show that online videos which address problematic real-life issues like set up, are a great training tool and indeed aid sales.

If Tormek put some effort into addressing the SE-76 issues as too frequently reported on this forum, then the company would undoubtedly benefit.