1/4" Bevel Edge Chisels

[Rob]

A noble goal indeed Ken and I also hope it takes that direction. However, having spoken with Kenny I got a sense of how deep his frustration is.  Perhaps Stig or one of his team can turn it round but I think young Kenny may have been lost by now as my guess is his good will has been stretched too far.  The situation was significantly exacerbated by the holiday schedule because there's just no resource available to help even though I don't doubt they would have been willing.

If it transpires the jig was indeed faulty rather than operator error (and that certainly sounds the case) then if that were my company I would actually courier the chisels to base at my cost and do them in the factory in addition to making amends with respect to any faulty parts.  Only will such a good will gesture solve the real problem which is his looming deadline for getting the job done.

[Stickan]

Hi,
Back online and sad that this is happened during our vacation. We try to give 24 hours help normally.
I will try to get to Kenny during the day and call him up.

Thanks to all you guys to give him your help, great to see.

Stig

[Ken S]

I have known for some time that Sweden has quietly listened to what we say.  This is a case for direct action.  I am pleased Stig has answered the call, as I expected.  Let's hope for a positive resolution.

Ken

[kennyk]

Hi Guys.  Apologies for the lack of communications over the last few days.

I'm pleased to report that I'm starting to make some progress.

However I'd like to address one of the main issues that I've been harping on about.  Namely the USB, and the play on the legs.    Jeff's advice to press down on the microadjust leg has been in part causing me a large proportion of my problems with the skew.

Last Thursday I packed up the T-7, a 2" square, a Sharpie, and a tray of 4 x 1" Chisels, 4 x 3/4" Chisels and 5 x 2" Plane blades from some No 4 Stanley Smoothing planes  and took them home.
I set up the Tormek outside on my Patio on my old Black & Decker Workmate, had a Barbeque and a couple of beers.

My work area in the school has no natural light which makes seeing what is actually going on more difficult, but outside in the natural daylight it's a lot easier.

Anyway.  here's two pictures for you to look at.

The first is after locking the USB with pressure on the Microadjust


Here's the photo after putting pressure on the other leg and locking:



So it's clear that the play is having an effect on the alignment of the chisel.

Once I'd discovered this, my results made a bit more sense. 
In the fairly lengthy phone conversation I had with Rob  (Thanks again, Rob!)  I gleaned a lot of useful information.  Perhaps the most useful two words he said was "sore thumbs".  Which gave me a lot of information regarding the required pressure.

What I discovered with the post-barbeque evening sharpening session was a methodology which has allowed me to get a very slight convex edge, which is reliably, and repeatably square.
Whether it was the outdoor atmosphere or the Stella Artois, I don't know.  However, what I've been doing is what I can only describe as 'Chasing the Curve' of the edge.   Perhaps I'm checking the edge with a square a little too often, but I'm grinding for no more than 20 seconds before removing the SE-76 from the USB and checking with a square.    Then I'm applying pressure on the subsequent grind where the high spot was, before removing again and re-checking.  I find that I don't need the sharpie for anything other than the initial check, and can chase the edge until it's close enough. 

The other things I've discovered are that any bizarre grinding behaviour is also likely to be down to partial glazing of the stone surface, which seems to be more critical than ensuring that it is perfectly flat - as extra pressure seems to compensate better for out-of-true than it does for finer grit areas on the stone.  Once I'd learned that, a quick regrading seems to help.

However,  things that I've learned, are things I've had to learn myself, and weren't covered in any of the videos I've watched.  And if anything can be learned from this whole saga it's that the instructions provided on the DVD don't tell anything like the whole story of how to overcome the types of issues I've encountered as a new user to the Tormek system, especially as the DVD gives the impression that it's far, far, simpler than the reality I've encountered.

I don't know if my methodology is correct, but at least I'm getting somewhere.  On that first session I got all the chisels and Plane blades I brought home done, and another Clifton 2 3/8" plane blade accurate enough that I'd use it for jointing spruce or hardwood boards for guitar making.

Today I managed to do around 7 x 1" chisels in well under an hour.   I'm going to try some 1/2" chisels tomorrow.... 

[Ken S]

Ah, ha! I believe you have found the winning recipe for using the Tormek, very good light and very good beer.  Just kidding about the beer.  You certainly earned a couple right sized pints!

In the olden days, we used to use feeler gages to set the gap on ignition points.  Using that same concept, if we use wooden "feeler gages" ("gauges" to those with the proper sized pints), we can easily feel if the support bar is parallel with the grinding wheel when set at the right distance. It makes sense to me to avoid a lot of up and down movement of the support bar.  Set it accurately and leave it.  No measuring necessary after that.

Isn't working in natural light pleasant?  Being a lifelong photographer I'm biased in favor of soft outdoor light.

When you get caught up, how about telling us a little about your school woodworking program?

Do keep us posted,

Ken

[RobinW]

I have just been catching up with this thread, and pleased to see that kennyk has made some initial progress.

Regarding previous comments about contacting distributers for help and/or training, I phoned D & M Tools , a distributer of Tormek and they do not do Tormek training. Brimarc the UK importer advised that they likewise do not undertake Tormek training as people would not pay the price. They have a representative who may be in Scotland possibly every 12 weeks or so, and if contacted that person may call in to a customer who has reported problems. I don't think kennyk (or indeed anyone else) can hold his breath that long!

I had some problems trying to understand the perspective of kennyk's photos, and did wonder if the SE-76 is different to the one I have. It was the alignment of the right hand side of the bush and the right angled aluminium behind it which on my unit are both in line.

Regarding the first picture showing the light under the chisel edge - How was the chisel sharpened? If it was sharpened on the Tormek, then why would the light start showing through?

Although the photos are taken very close (depth of field and resolution issues) the surface of the wheel does not look flat to me.

Regards the glazing, this is countered by use of the regrading stone.

Also I still do not understand why kennyk still has a problem with play in the usb. If the usb is locked on both legs the how can there be play? He dismisses the locking of the usb as previously advised by Jeff and also the methodology I described. By applying some pressure to the usb above the threaded leg with micro-adjuster, then you are fixing the height reference as it is butted against the shoulder. If you apply pressure to the unclamped smooth leg, then an unspecified of skew will be induced.

Also if kennyk could do some measurements regarding the distance between the usb and the wheel surface it would demonstrate (like the measurements I posted) if the two remain parallel.

TimH - Interesting post. I'm not in a position for a while to try some tests and see if I get the same conclusion.

With regard to Stickan's comment that Tormek try to give help within 24 hours - Is this by means of this Forum, or if customers contact them direct? I was unaware that Tormek would address problems posted on this Forum. (There have been plenty of SE-76 issues posted over the last couple of years, and not aware these have been directly addressed by Tormek.)

Keep at it kennyk.

[kennyk]

I'm going to try to explain this one a bit more clearly...

The issue is that the usb legs rattle inside the sleeves  to the extent that the weight of the chisel in the SE-76 is pulling the support down over the wheel, leaving the gap on one side of the chisel,  until it is corrected by pressure on the other leg, as shown in the second photo.   For the avoidance of confusion, this is PRIOR to tightening the locking screws.   Therefore if I mount the chisel correctly, slide the SE 76 onto the USB, adjust the angle and tighten the screws without further checking what I get is the first photo.  if I put pressure on the non-adjust leg before tightening, then I can now achieve a square grind.

(The chisel was previously sharpened on a Viceroy Sharpedge with a badly dished stone, causing a convex curve in the blade.  In fact every single one of the couple of hundred chisels sharpened by the previous technician on the equipment show the same curve.  I am trying to finally give the teaching staff a proper level of sharp equipment for the pupils to work with. )

I am still concerned about the amount of play between the sleeves and the support legs, as shown in the the gap in the first photo. 

Also, I've never managed to get a completely flat surface across the entire width of the stone.  In fact using the grading stone seems to exacerbate the curve.  In my conversation with Rob on the phone last week, he seemed (unless I have picked him up wrong)  to indicate that a bit of fall away at the corners was not an issue.   My experience over the last few days is that a good amount of finger pressure applied in the correct place, coupled with judicious and frequent checking with a square can more than compensate for this.   However it cannot compensate for a misalignment of the chisel edge to the stone due to the misalignment of the USB prior to tightening the locking screws.

Edited to add another thought:

The weight of the USB on it's own does not show the issues as much, so the usb will sit parallel to the stone surface.
Further the TT-50 is much lighter so does not cause the cantilever effect that the SE-76 loaded with a chisel does.

[Stickan]

RobinW:

If you should send an e-mail to the support mail (support@tormek.com) we will normally answer within 24 hours during weekdays. I have not been so active at this forum but there is no bigger difference being here or at a fair or store demos these days. I do travel a lot bur try to check out the forum some times during the week.

[RobinW]

Thanks for the explanation Kenny. If I get a chance this week I'll see what my kit does as a comparison.

[Mike Fairleigh]

When tightening the USB, I've always applied pressure to the non-micro adjust leg (or really in between the two legs to put pressure on both), because it just seems to make sense to offset the cantilevered weight of the long horizontal rod before tightening.  IMO there has to be some play in the sleeves, otherwise it would be too fiddly to adjust easily.

[RobinW]

I've had a quick look at the play in my usb where it enters the sockets on the main body. Without locking either clamp there is a small amount lateral of play at the non-threaded leg of about 0.5 mm (eyeball). I would expect that sort of play otherwise it would be difficult to move up and down.

When I fitted the SE-76 I couldn't say that it was noticeably loading the usb downwards.

I could press down on the non-threaded leg and get a small deflection. angular deflection at the chisel edge.

Without having either leg clamped, pulling up the non-threaded leg, or the opposite end of the usb was liable to cause vertical displacement as opposed to angular displacement - not a worthwhile test really.

Without a third hand or fourth hand, I could not decently measure the effect of load caused by the SE-76 to the unclamped usb, but it was very very small.

Having gone back and checked the long sides of some chisels for straightness, most would probably cause an equal amount of error as the deflection of the usb.

Would any others care to comment on the play or deflection in their usb?

[Herman Trivilino]

I have verified that if I turn the micro adjuster so the USB is a certain distance above the grindstone and then tighten both locking screws the position is precise.  That is to say, repeatable.  The variation is too small for me to measure, certainly within any tolerance needed.  As I've said before, applying pressure on one side or other of the tool will create more variation in grinding than any adjustment I make to the USB or any other part of the Tormek.

If the grindstone is not true, or the tool is not mounted squarely in the jig, then I can't get a square edge on a chisel or plane iron.

If the grindstone is true, and the tool is mounted squarely in the jig, then it's still possible to get an edge that's not square.

In other words a trued grindstone and a squarely mounted tool are necessary, but not sufficient, conditions for getting a square edge.  You must also take care and apply more pressure to the long point when grinding.

[tonylumps]

Would two threaded rods and 2 Micro adjustment Knobs work for a finer adjustment. I was thinking a while back about threading the other leg and adding a bolt to it. Just a thought.

[Ken S]

Interesting thought, Tony.  However, it might be overkill for the use intended. Herman threaded his support bar.  It can be done.  I would suggest reading the new topic I just posted before getting out a thread die.

Ken

[kennyk]

When tightening the USB, I've always applied pressure to the non-micro adjust leg (or really in between the two legs to put pressure on both), because it just seems to make sense to offset the cantilevered weight of the long horizontal rod before tightening.  IMO there has to be some play in the sleeves, otherwise it would be too fiddly to adjust easily.

I agree,  however it is my feeling that there is too much play in the sleeves.  Tightening the non-adjust leg also moves it front to back by around half a mm, which can also skew the usb above the wheel.  If I get the chance I'll experiment with some masking on the support legs.   However it's not going to be for a couple of weeks I suspect.


In other developments, I've been moving forward with some 1/2" and 3/8" (and 10mm) chisels.  I'm still getting a bit of skewing but I can correct this with huge pressure on the long point.  it's the point closest to the inside of the wheel.   I'm starting to suspect that the previous grinding is having some bearing on this.  If I ever find a blade that's squareish, I'll know more!   

However I'm able to do some troubleshooting now, so this whole saga has taught me that at least.  if I can't correct the skew I have a few things to try, and it's a case of getting a feel for the likely culprit. 
I've done nearly one whole classroom's worth of chisels.  Once I get the last of the 1/2"ers done I can start to tackle the 1/4". but most of these are firmers rather than bevel edged so that should help in terms of aligment problems.