How to achieve less than 100 bess?

[jimon]

Hi everyone.
I've sharpening my knives last year, and I can't understand how people achieve 50-60 bess?
My knives has around 150 bess - this is my best result. Usually 160-170 bess.
I using a standard SG stone and a leather wheel - standard set. May be for this set 150 bess is maximum what I can get?
Totally, for usual use, this sharpness is completely sufficient, but how do people manage to achieve less than 100 bess?

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, Jimon.

This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC

Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?

The demonstrator in this video, our late member,"wootz" (Vadim Kriachuk of Knifegrinders of Australia) was a very dedicated sharpener and researcher. He developed a very refined technique as shown in his numerous you tube videos

Personally, I would not feel comfortable using a 10° bevel.

Ken

[jimon]

Thank you Ken,

I saw this video, and my results still around 150 bess. I guess the reason of this my angle on bevel  - it is depends from knive, and usually is 13-15 degrees on bevel.

May by I will try to do 10 degrees for the experiment, and it will takes low pressure on BESS, but also want to achieve a higher sharpness without lowering the sharpening angle.

[cbwx34]

I'm not a BESS fan... but according to this post, a 13-15 dps edge should be able to achieve a lower score.

Personally, I think BESS use is subjective, and it could just as easily be something in your testing technique, as it is in the sharpening.  I'd look at other factors... like, for example, what you wrote earlier, in how it performs in actual use.

If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.

[RickKrung]

...snip..
This video demonstrates how to get low BESS readings using standard Tormek equipment.

https://youtu.be/UckPmizllk0?si=jb6f3UwgOOq8JTFC

Please note at just after 1:15 the targeted bevel angle setting used on the applet, 10 degrees. (10 degrees per side). What bevel angle are you using when you sharpen?

...snip...
Ken

...snip..
If it is in the sharpening, one thing you might try, instead of changing the sharpening angle, adjust the honing angle a bit higher, and see if makes a difference.

Couple things. 

1) Honing angle that I saw in that video was 12º DPS rather than 10º.  However, I do not think that what the angle is, is as relevant as the differential between grinding and honing angles, per what follows. 
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2) I definitely agree with raising the honing angle for typical home use knives (which is all that I have), based on Vadim's other work regarding techniques for deburring steels of different hardness.  While Vadim's video was intended to show what is possible with standard Tormek equipment, it appears to also reflect what I assume is the Tormek method of using the same ange for honing.  The reference video appears to have been posted in 2019, which is AFTER the fourth edition of Vadim's deburring book where he discusses the benefits of using varying honing angles for different types of steels. 
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It was demonstrative that he was able to achieve 75 BESS by using the same angle.  I am curious what he could have demonstrated if he had used an angle more specific to the type of steel being sharpened Maybe he did without saying anything about it, so maybe it wasn't relevant, but it would have been informative for him to have mentioned it (unless he did at some point that I didn't see, as I didn't watch the video from start to finish).

Rick

[John Hancock Sr]

I'm not a BESS fan... but according to this post, a 13-15 dps edge should be able to achieve a lower score.

I'm with you. There are a lot of factors that affect BESS score, including your testing technique.

Tests have shown that after a few minutes of use you typically end up at about 160 BESS so anything below this is probably acceptable. The SG-250 and leather wheel with the Tormek compound will never give you scores below 100. You need to go to the SJ-250, DE-250 and manually stropping or other diamond infused strop to get really good scores. Not to mention lower sharpening angles also lowers the BESS scores, but obviously the trade of with lower angles is more fragility.

Interestingly Bazz from Findon Sharpening has made a few videos showing him experimenting various techniques getting low scores where he uses the SJ and a manual strop charged with compound.

[jimon]

I agree. I guess it will be difficult to get lower BESS on this set (SG+honing weel)
I tried to play with the honing angles (probably on hands, not at fixed angle), but be honest, I didn't see a difference.
I think that the SG stone + leather wheel with Tormek paste giving just like my results.
And for lower BESS rates need to use felts, wool, diamond sprays, etc.

Thank you all for your comments - if anything in my process will change - I will let you know.

[jimon]

FYI

I have checked the factorys sharpening Spyderco Military 2 (CPM S110V) - 166, 175, 156 BESS in different parts of the blade.
Angle 16/18 dps.
Total angle is 34 degrees.

This factory's result looks as mine on Tormek standart kit))))

[Ken S]

I am a longtime eliever in BESS. However, I also do the chopping for our home meals. I recommend you do the same. Working regularly at your cutting board will give you invaluable "from the trenches" feedback about your knives.

Ken

PS For some reason, Wootz changed the bevel angle setting in the middle of the video.

[Sir Amwell]

Just to add my pennies worth. I think Bess scores in the range of 150 (130/140/150/160/170) indicate that the burr has not been completely removed.
Whilst I gave up chasing sub 50 Bess a long time ago I still use the tester to indicate to me that the burr has been properly dealt with. I'm happy with anything under 120 and more than happy under 100.
So I think maybe you need to pay a little more attention not just to bevel angle but honing technique. The Tormek compound on leather wheel is good for most steels but harder steels really need diamonds and a very precise honing angle to completely remove the burr.
One important thing I took from studying Wootz book on sharpening is that the secret is not just achieving a true apex on a knife edge but how to remove the burr.
That is why his book is titled as it is.