knife sharpening

[Chiltop]

Hello,

This the first post that I have posted so I hope I get it right!!!!!!

I have used a Tormek machine for the past 2 and a half years, I started with the T3 and in November last year upgraded to the T7, there are a couple of little things that I have adapted over this period to assist myself with sharpening all sorts of different knives for the proffessional chefs which use my sharpening service.

The first thing that I have changed from the guidelines in the handbook is to sharpen the knives at an overall angle of 22 degrees and not the 20 degrees on each side.  having spent time reading articles and speaking to chefs i realised that most kitchen knives are sharpened between 18 degrees and 25 degrees so i am using 22 as a happy medium and all of my customers are pleased with the results

After changing the angle of the sharpening i then noticed that I needed to change the position of the clamp on the blade to closer to the tip to ensure the correct angle was applied to the whole edge (trial and error isn't the most sientific but was the only method i could think of!!!!). i was also struggling to sharpen large bladed knives such as cleaver style knives because vthe legs of the universal support were not long enough. there for i made a new universal support that was 4" longer in every direction, this has helped me sharpen the more unusual knives that have been presented to me.

I cant add the images that i was going to upload, any help?

My last adaptation was to cut through some old stones at different widths to create some thinner wheels. I then packed out the spindle of the machine with some washers and raised to water trough on some wooden blocks so that the stone was then in contact with enough water.  I was then browing the forum and came across a post about using the back of the scissor jig and a piece of wood to create a rest for sharpening knives. After putting all of this together and some more trial and error I was not only able to sharpen serrated knives I was also able to restore the serrations that had been almost removed.  I used a sharpie to mark the back of the blade in the individual serrations so that I could position the knife correctly to sharpen each invididual one. The only issue i have with this is that i have had to used a 9" angle grinder to cut through the stones so therefore they are not always plumb, if some machine made ones at different widths were available from Tormek I would buy them, as long as they were not outrageously priced!!!!

Again i have some pics but cant upload them.

Thank you for reading my first post and I would really appreciate some feedback on the points I have made.

[Rob]

welcome Chiltop.  You sound like exactly the sort of person this forum likes a lot ie creative and ingenious in the way you apply yourself and the Tormek to solve complex problems with your tools.  If you search on knife or knife jig I'm sure you will find lengthy threads about different home made jigs people have innovated to overcome strange tool geometries or size etc.  Its been debated and discussed many times with some excellent solutions to some of the problems.

I must say I personally haven't heard of a wheel being sliced to make it thinner before - what a cracking idea for doing scallops :-)

No doubt the boys will be along soon and I'm sure they will join me in congratulating your efforts :-)

For pics you need to upload them to a photo hosting web service first (like Photobucket et al) and then link the individual photo from there to here.  Again, there is a sticky explaining how to do it.  Just search for posting pictures or similar and you'll find it.  You may need a minimum number of posts before you have permission to post pics too, though if that's the case it wont be many.

[Chiltop]

Hi Rob,

Thank you for the reply, and the positive comments they have given more confidence in the ideas that whizz around my head!!

I have uploaded some photos to photobucket, hopefully you can view them at this link.
<iframe width="480" height="360" src="http://s1369.photobucket.com/user/hiltonchris7/embed/slideshow/Mobile%20Uploads"></iframe>

If not I will try something else.

[Chiltop]

Forgot to say I am no David Bailey so please don't judge me on the quality of my pics!!!!

[Rob]

LOL.....David Bailey you may not be my friend but those pictures tell a real story.  Very well done. I absolutely love the multi washer shims to get the ultra thin wheel to the right spot.  And the extra tall universal support looks like something out of that tribe in Africa...the "Watussi".  One of the tallest tribes of humans - brilliant bit of home invention.

What really strikes me and what you couldn't possibly have known about unless you had been a regular on this forum is that your tapered knife jig is almost a carbon copy of other people on this forum who have also invented basically the same solution.  It just goes to show that great minds do think alike.

A chap called Herman should be along soon, he made a knife jig too and will be able to point you in the direction of his efforts.  Also Ionut and Grepper from memory have made similar rigs.

Well done mate...keep it up and of course the final judges of any mods you make are your customers who vote with their wallets :-)  I think you're the only person ever to have cracked the sharpening of scalloped knives where the inside of the scallop is sharpened.  We've all sharpened just a bevel on the end of a serrated blade and that does actually work (as if its a regular straight knife)....but its not as elegant as what you've done.

[Chiltop]

Hi Rob,

I can't take any credit for the knife rest, as I said I had been browsing the forum and came across the idea, but couldn't remember or then find it again who had the idea first. But using that jig it meant it gave a more uniformed result.

With regards to my customers being happy with the results, they are!! It took some time and patience to perfect the results, but I am now there. If you or anyone else now wants to uses the slim stone the best bit of advise I can give is try not to make the points of the scallops too pointed as it then either rips what you are slicing or gets stuck in the board!! Also because I am using under sized stones be careful you don't slice through the rubber friction wheel.( I sometimes position my spare support arm in the way so that the knife isn't able to touch it) I will take some more photos and them soon.

Again thank you for your positive responses and I now can't wait to put some of my other ideas into practice and tell you all about them,(even the ones that don't work!!!!)

Cheers

Chris

[Rob]

Well you're really welcome old son, its a pleasure to be able to shine a bit of light on some very innovative thinking.  For sure, you should always explore your ideas by making prototypes, and of course many will fail but that's the thing with inventing, when they fail, the smart folks just learn what didn't work and improve the next attempt.  Its the ones that give up at the first hurdle that I feel sorry for.

You obviously don't give up, you keep going until you come up with a working solution.  I applaud that I really do.  That's how all the worlds products got made at the fundamental level.  Someone somewhere came up with an idea, went for it and kept on going until it worked sufficiently well to make a business out of it.  The essence of that is the "spirit" of not giving up, the "gumption".  So never be-little your efforts, they're just learning experiences as you test and refine your ideas for what does and doesn't work.

You should be dam proud of that slim wheel idea, you're an inventor pure and simple :-)

[grepper]

Wow!  You sliced up grindstones like a loaf of bread?  No wonder you wanted to be able to sharpen serrated knives.  Yours must have been very dull by the time you were done with that!   Seriously, I'd never thought of taking an angle grinder to a grinding wheel.   That's some amazing problem solving.  I think you win the prize for the most out of the box thinking and industrious accessory maker ever. 

As far as your thin wheels being out of plumb, maybe run them through a planer?  That way you could sharpen your planer blades and square up your stones at the same time!  Or.. I hear the Tormek can sharpen planer blades too!  (Sorry, I must be on one of those moods).

The only solution I've seen for sharpening/shaping serrations was to round the edges of the grinding wheel.  I think your way is better as you could have different profiles for each wheel. 

Could that effect the integrity of wheel? The Tormek runs slowly so maybe it's not a concern, but if the thing did come apart it could still pitch a piece surprisingly quickly, and of course it would go directly at your eye.

You might find these interesting:

http://stores.ebay.com/Diamond-Tools-International/Grinding-Wheels-Convex-/_i.html?_fsub=2991124015

You seem to have bumped into a lot of the common problems, and have found ways to solve them.  A true Tormek user. Way to go!

[Chiltop]

Hi Grepper,

As you said the Tormek spins slow, therefore you have complete control over not only the blade but also the stone. I have been using the slim stones for about a year now and have never encountered any problems with flying debris from the stone, they seem to hold their integrity really well. I have some old ones that I have ground down to less than 4" from the original 6" that I cut them from.

The plumbness issues I have with the stones are on the flat diameter of the stone because when using the angle grinder you can only cut so far through the stone then you have to turn it to make the next cut, therefore with the human error factor you can never make the perfect cut twice or even the four times you need to turn the stone!!!!

Thank you for the link it was very interesting, however most of the serrated blades that I come across have scallops of either 6,7,8 or 10mm so the 1/4" and 1/2" wouldn't work.

Bit to be called a true Tormek user is an honour and a privilege.

Cheers

Chris 

[grepper]

I wonder if a horizontal belt sander would work even the sides of the wheels.  A 4" belt sander is not that expensive, and you can pick up 4"x36" Zirconia belt for less than $10.00 US and longer ones for just a little more.

I have no idea how well Zirconia would hold up under a grindstone, but certainly better than AO.  If Zirconia didn't hold up, a diamond belt would probably work but be considerably more expensive.

I don't know how much of a problem it is for you, but it's an idea.

BTW, I sharpen knives too, so I find your idea interesting. 

Seems like a lot of hassle to slice up grindstones.  Landscape contractors and some lumber yards cut stone too.  Possibly you could just find someone with a stone cutting band saw to cut them for you?

Mark

[grepper]

At risk of going off subject:

Sharpening serrated knives has always bugged me, and I'd like to find a good solution too. 

I wonder if conical stones used for rotary tool in a drill press might work.  Stuff like:
http://www.widgetsupply.com/category/dremel-grinding-stone-cone.html that come in lots of different sizes and angles.

You could make an adjustable rest, or just cut rests at different angles from blocks of wood.  Then just hold the knife against the rest and lower the drill press.  That would make very consistent cuts quickly.

I don't have a sharpening service but folks give me garden tools, knives and the like to sharpen.  I've made a tiny amount of $$ from it over the years, but mostly I just enjoy it and just do it for fun.

But the serrated knives are a pain, and I've just been doing them by hand.  I'd like to find a consistent, easy, accurate and fast way to do it.  It can't be that hard to solve, just a matter of deciding to do it and then finding the time...

[Chiltop]

Hi Mark,

I thought of using a dremel style machine with its various attachments and bits but stayed away from it as I wanted to try and get the same result from the wet stone that I get on straight edged knives.

When slicing the stones it only takes a lapses in concentration for a second and you can get a thinner or thicker part to the stone. At the moment I try to remove any ridges or lumps left on the cut side with the grinder and then rub the stone against an uncut stone to try and smooth the surface.

My main problem is that I used to cut through an SG200 at 6" but after upgrading I will need to cut through an SG250 at 7" and at the moment my at home solution is to use a 12" blade on my 9" grinder( just don't tell the HSE).

[Chiltop]

Hi Mark,

After re-reading your post a few times and setting the cogs of my brain in motion, I have now used a flap disc on my 4" grinder (as I don't have access to a belt sander) to smooth the cut surfaces on the slim stones. This has given great results in not only the sides but also in making the width more uniformed as it only removes a small amount of stone and is less harsh than using a stone grinding disc.

Thank you for the AO reference.

[grepper]

Cool!  Good idea Chris.

[Ken S]

I must be the Neanderthal in the group.  (Actually, I have confirmed that my DNA does contain a 3% Neanderthal component, which is typical of those with a northern European background.)

I sharpen my bread knife with a quarter inch dowel wrapped with adhesive abrasive paper.  It does not require much time and just a modicum of care.  I prefer this to lightly grinding the flat back.  I think the process might be improved by substituting diamond paste for the adhesive abrasive.  One sheet of abrasive cut into narrow slices lasts a long time. Narrower scallops would require a smaller dowel.  For narrow scallops, bamboo shish kabob sticks should work with diamond paste.  (Use a fairly course grade of paste.)

Shaped India slip stones (like machinists use) are another idea.

I might think differently if I was doing ten or twenty bread knives a day.

Ken