Straight edge razor sharpening below 10 degrees on WM 200 Anglemaster

[TrueGrit]

Hello: Complete newbie here. My grandfather several generations removed had a hardware store that sold quite a few straight edge razors in the late 19th and well into the 20th centuries. Several of these razors have been passed down to me which I use regularly and have maintained using Norton 4/8k stones as well as a leather strop with diamond spray on it.

I've heard that the Tormek setup is a great way to do sharpen these great old razors to a whole 'nuther level by using the Japanese 4k SJ250 and following up on the leather wheel LA 220 (anyone know the grit of the as supplied Tormek honing compound? http://www.woodworkersemporium.com/Tormek_LA-220) and applying this green rouge product liberally to the leather wheel: http://www.japanwoodworker.com/product/156691/Green-Rouge-Polishing-Compound--KoyoSha.aspx  (0.5 to 1.5 micron)

When watching this view re the WM 200 Anglemaster,  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmGfDULpiQ#t=81  it talks about halving the angle to adjust the knife holder. In my case, the full blade angle ranges from 16-18 degrees- ie 8 to 9 degrees each side. This is part of what makes these razors shave so well.

So my questions are: 1) Is there a way for me to set the blade angle to 8 degrees even though the WM 200 only indicates down to 10 degrees a side? 2) Secondly, can the angle actually be set and put an edge on that is lower than 10 degrees as shown? 3) If so which models can do this? Ie Super 2000 (one here in town on Craig's list) or T-7?

Thanks very much, looking forward to getting involved. TG.

[grepper]

Hi there TrueGrit.  Welcome. 

I don't have the 4K stone so I can't comment on how it will compare to the 8K Norton as far as edge production goes.  If you are currently producing an edge that you are shaving with, I suspect that you have become very skillful and it may be difficult to improve on the edge you are currently getting.  I saw on article by a guy who was getting very good results using 3M abrasive film stuck to glass and using angle block to maintain an consistent angle.

One issue you might run into is well known and discussed at length here:  Using the standard knife jigs on a thin blade, (thin from edge to spine), the jig, where it clamps to the blade, contacts the grindstone before the blade when sharpening at small angles.  Like holding your razor with a pair of pliers clamped on  the spine of the blade, as you decrease the angle to the stone the jaws of the pliers hit the stone.  There are two possible solutions to this problem:

Tormek Small Knife Holder: http://tormek.com/international/en/grinding-jigs/svm-00-small-knife-holder/
Herman's HK-50 tool rest: http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=1592.msg6634#msg6634

Here is a guy that did some serious testing sharpening razor blades on the Tormek:
https://www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf

The model of Tormek is not really the issue.  They all work the same way.  The real issues are if you will get a better edge faster than your currently do, and finding some way to clamp onto the blade.

You might also find this interesting:
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/grinder.html#grinderset

Sorry if I didn't answer your question about the Anglemaster, but I don't really know.  Maybe you could just extend its rule below 10 degrees?

If you get the Tormek and give it a try, let us know the results!

[SharpenADullWitt]

First, welcome to the board.

Second, do you have any that weren't passed down?  The reason I say that, is the Tormek as well as any sharpening system, seems to be a lot about practice, practice, practice.  (and I like to be good before working on something I might consider a family heirloom)
When I joined the board, I read every post trying to learn from others.  Two that I remember that might help, with Jeff Farris (a forum Moderator), telling how he does it in the first one, and the second post, with a procedure I would like to try (only have the one straight razor though):
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=255.msg744#msg744
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=263.msg778#msg778

I think both of these posts were before Tormek had their branded Japanese stone.  So take that into account (haven't seen any real discussion of the King or other brand waterstones that have been sold for Tormek prior to that).  Also the discussions I know we have had on the SJ stone, revolve around how it is less of a grinding type of stone then a polishing stone (more to rehone/polish then to regrind an edge).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35wVwIOwgdw

[TrueGrit]

Thanks, Grepper & SADW, very helpful. It seems like the only two remaining questions are 1) Do the geometry calculations of the WM200 hold below 10 degrees? and 2) Does the SV 45 or some other tool physically allow one to consistently go down to 8 degrees each side without hitting the grinding or leather wheel?


This is a pretty good link that takes me back to high school: "Gee, I am a tree!", thanks! 
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/grinder.html#grinderset 

[Ken S]

Welcome to the forum, TrueGrit.

Extending the angle range of the Anglemaster shouldn't be a problem.  I checked mine with a rule.  The one degree slashes are approximately 1/32" apart.  Use your rule and add several more slash marks beyond the ten degree marks. Use a fine point marker. You will be very close (plus or minus a few minutes, well within tolerance).

The problem is having the jig set to those low angles without rubbing. The Tormek small knife jig really isn't designed for straight razors. It works better with blades which don't fold.

A better choice would be to make one of the small knife jigs a la Ionut or Herman. My modification of a Torlock jig might also work, however, at such a low angle it would be clumsy. I would suggest the Ionut/Herman design. Ionut wrote that he could sharpen scalpels with his rig. (He has a dedicated Tormek with his 4000 grit wheel.)

Would the 4000 grit SJ wheel give a finer edge than an eight thousand grit waterstone?  I doubt it. It is really designed more for carving tools and chisels. If I needed a finer edge than an 8000 grit waterstone, I would look into one of the Shapton 16,000 or 30,000 grit stones.

As I have had my present beard since 1992, and beards off and on since 1967, I am no expert on razors of any kind.

If you do not already have a Tormek and don't have a lot of other sharpening projects for one, the cost of a Tormek and the SJ stone seems cost prohibitive unless you shave quite a lot.

Keep us posted.

Ken

[grepper]

This guy's whole site is pretty informative.  Here's a link to the site map:
http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/sitemap.html

[TrueGrit]

Thanks Ken & grepper- getting much closer. Need a consistent edge replicable both sides - a jig that does this is key. Re Norton 4/8k stones, well they are pretty nice, but I am looking for something that can be done consistently every time- that is why the jig is so important.

Anybody else have repeatable small angle mirror image jig ideas?                                             The rest of my Qs seem to have been more than adequately answered- thanks.

As well, with a 0.5 micron size, this paste on the leather wheel goes way beyond what Norton supplies, as it is the equivalent of 50,000 grit    http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2003112/866/Micro-Fine-Honing-Compound.aspx
I got that idea from the paper that grepper posted earlier on this thread: https://www.wickededgeusa.com/files/knifeshexps.pdf  wherein on page 44, the Prof gets the edge widths down to 0.3-0.4 microns- that is what a new disposable razor has.

(1 micron is about 8k same as a Norton: http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/buffing-material.htm).

Why does all this matter? I've a dense forest of beard hair and I go through disposables too quickly (to the tune of $200 a year) and it's quite wasteful. Thus simple math shows that a $700 T-7 with a seven year warranty is well worth the money and all of my kitchen and woodworking tools will be far better off for it.  Might be some other good things that come of solving all this. The benefits of being a perfectionist. Thanks! TG

[Ken S]

"Thus simple math shows that a $700 T-7 with a seven year warranty is well worth the money and all of my kitchen and woodworking tools will be far better off for it."

Based on working with my Tormek for several years, I think you can safely substitute your lifetime (at least) in the cost calculation with the Tormek.  The machine is very solid, with little to wear out, and sharpening straight razors is very light duty.  I assume you will scrupulously maintain your Tormek (dumping the water after each use and keeping the machine clean). A well maintained seven year old Tormek still has much life left in it.  In fact, I believe most abused seven year old Tormeks do as well, especially if given better care.

You might be able to help keep the two edges identical by using the Herman/Ionut jig and adding a clamp on register fence to keep the back of the blade in place.

Ken 

[grepper]

And for the finishing touches, if you really want a sharp blade, check out the 3M Microfinishing lapping and polishing film abrasives.  They go down to .1 micron.

http://www.3m.com/Product/information/Microfinishing-Film.html

This page of the Beach article shows a simple homemade jig.  I'm sure that with a little thought you could come up with something what would work for your razor:

http://www3.telus.net/BrentBeach/Sharpen/station.html

[TrueGrit]

http://tormek.com/international/en/accessories/grindstones/

Hello: Great progress so far on the razor sharpening project, have made a jig that works well and holds both sides of straight edge razor blades equally well- repeatable and precise. 

Have been looking at getting the SJ 250 4000 grit stone and in the video, it looks like the stone is rotating away from you in all cases (unlike the basic stone). Is this correct? Ie similar to the leather honing- rotation never towards you always away?

Thanks, you guys are great. TG

[grepper]

I don't think it is an "always" situation, but more what works for you after you practice a bit.

Herman pretty much sums it up here:
http://forum.tormek.com/index.php?topic=2265.0

The leather honing wheel could catch the edge if you tried to hone toward the blade, so in that case it's "always" away from the edge.

[TrueGrit]

Thanks Grepper! Makes perfect sense. "When the grindstone turns towards the tool it grinds faster. When it turns away you have more control. I very rarely have the stone turning away from the tool."

[TrueGrit]

Hello:

I am wondering if there are other stones and leather wheels that fit onto a T-7?

Does Norton, etc make stones that fit and operate well on a T-7. Sorry if this has been answered, I did not see it in my search.  Thanks!

[SharpenADullWitt]

Tormek makes three stones, the leather wheel and a couple different contoured wheels for turning tools. Norton, makes none that I am aware of.  There are at least a couple of stones made by other people for the Tormek (King stones comes to mind), but you see less of them, since Tormek came out with their other stones.  There is also a CBN type of stone that fits a Tormek.
That is all that I am aware of.