initial dressing

[Ken S]

With our "quick start guide" in mind, I am wondering whether or not to include a recommendation to use the diamond dresser before initial grinding.  My unsupported dry grinding memory would indicate this would be a good practice to true the stone with the grinder.

I find no mention of this in the Tormek handbook.  Early in the book, it states that "A grindstone can, after a period of use, become uneven on its sruface and run out of true."  it then suggests using the TT-50 diamond dresser.

The TT-50 itself doesn't appear in my copy until page 139.

I recall carefully using the TT-50 to initially true the wheel on my first Tormek. I don't recall doing so with my second unit.  (both were purchased new).  I don't recall any difference in the performance.  (Except less operator with the second unit)

My question is, should a recommendation for initial truing of the stone be included in our guide, or omitted? If it serves no practical value, i would like to keep things simple.  Comments?

Ken

[Rob]

On balance I would suggest not.  Having just taken receipt of a brand new stone, the manufacturing process left it very true and easily rough enough to cut right out the box. Keeping it simple for new users is important

It might be just worth mentioning to conduct a trueness test.  Line the universal sppt 1mm from the new stone and check for alignment....if ok...on you go.

[Rob]

Heres some supporting images to be included in the piece so a new user knows what an aligned US and wheel looks like

[ionut]

I have 4 stone and none were true in any direction. I have unboxed a couple of other machines and the stones were not true. If any had by coincidence a parallel surface with the universal support the stones were not perfectly round. On the top of everything I doubt all the universal supports are perfectly the same or the that the frame connection renders the exact same position for the universal support. Also I have seen one universal support which had the adjustment wheel not perpendicular to the post axis, that made the universal support ending every time at a different angle in relation to the grinding surface of the stone.
So the first thing to do when a new machine is put at work or a new stone is installed is to true the stone using the TT-50. I would even go further as I described in an older post, to mark the stone, the shaft and the washers so if down the road I would install a different stone I would install it in the same way so I don't end having to true the stones needlessly.
I am speaking from the point of view of fine woodworking tools,  if the intention is to hit concrete or open cans with the tool or other interesting things, then I doubt you would ever have to use the truing tool.

Thanks,
Ionut

[Rob]

OK...so doing the alignment test is critical then....if out then true away.  Clearly there is some variation in the manufacturing process. 

Maybe even a "fettling" sub category which would include mineral oil in the honing wheel, the above etc etc.

All woodworkers expect a bit of fettling with any new machine tool, I must have ben lucky because mine was excellent right out the box

[Ken S]

Good answers, Rob and Ionut.  Better because they are not the same.

Ionut, your answer does not surprise me.  I have known for some time that you have developed your craft to a very high standard of precision.  You have done this by your own work and have generously shared the results and encouraged the rest of us to expand our abilities.  I have the advantage over most of the forum of having shared posts and personal emails with you which have  encouraged me to go beyond the usual "limitations" of the Tormek.

Rob, you present a very logical way to quickly determine if the wheel and USB are in good alignment.

My question for both of you is:  From the standpoint of someone who is first opening the box on his new Tormek (perhaps with very little sharpening background), would it be more beneficial to try to use the TT-50 right away or wait until he had a feel for the machine?

Ionut, while you were gone, the idea recently emerged of having some sort of a forum guide for very beginners to try to help get past some of the common beginning pitfalls.  That's the context of my question.

I look forward to reading more on this from both of you.

Ken

[Rob]

They say one views the world through the prism of your own experience.  I guess because mine was good and Ive had two stones both which were good, I felt that too much info for a newb would just confuse.  But Ionut's experience is markedly different.

All my other machine tools (bandsaw, table saw, chopsaw, lathe, router table, planar/thicknesser, dedicated mortiser) have needed fettling when I got them.  So chances are Ionuts experience is more likely to be the norm than mine.

I guess as long as the true test is a must have a user can make a quick judgement if the wheel needs doing.

[Ken S]

I would expect a new Tormek owner who happened to have a solid background as a machinist or as a grinder to follow Ionut's advice in truing his machine.  I don't think this person would be the typical new owner who experienced trouble learning to use his Tormek.

My gut feeling is that the majority of those who experience initial difficulty probably do not have that extensive background.  If we can help them over the initial hurdles, I believe eventually they will become proficient.  Maybe the question of dressing the wheel should be in the "less frequently asked folder".

Ken

[Rob]

There are definitely two camps of newbs arent there:

Those with general tooling backgrounds that have a sort of mechanical mindset....the're used to the foibles of machine tools and the real DIY'er who has started down the path of getting more serious. 

Camp one are the sort that (like many of the regulars here) will invent solutions themselves by applying their adaptive minds because theyve deveolped the confidence from working with previous machines.  They need just a pointer in the right direction and they're off.

The less experienced group are the ones that most need the help and also the encouragement and support to develop the confidence to try out their own ideas.  It always comes back to your original apprenticeship analogy Ken...I think you were spot on with that

[ionut]

I didn't want to put you in a defensive position Rob, I apologize if I did, that wasn't my intention..

Those were some of my observations during the time of using the machines, related to the subject. They may not apply to everyone and not everyone will expect from the machine what I expect.
I agree, there are a number of fettling things when it comes to woodworking, but any of these fettling actions take the person out of the real occupation which is working the wood and for me that's not what I want or like,. We can't avoid this but we can acknowledge it and minimize it or learn how to deal with it.

If I would be participating in a sharpening contest to get a molecular edge on the tools then I would probably be fettling all day long to get the best results, and on the top of it I would like doing that, but luckily I am not participating in such contest.

Ken, if it would be me I would true the stone as the first step so I would avoid frustrations, questioning anything about the machine construction or quality, with my first sharpening and definitely when or if  am new to the machine. Making sure the abrading device is flat or round or true to the tool surface that is being sharpened is the first requirement of any type of sharpening for any tool.
Usually the low spots on the stone tend to get lower faster that the high spots get leveled and the results are getting worse.
The truing takes no more than a couple of minutes. I never get a full adjusting wheel gradation bite in one step, if someone would worry about wasting the stone, you can take as less as possible or as needed. The goal is to bring the stone to a perfect round shape and the grinding surface to match the universal support.

All the best,
Ionut

[Rhino]

I treat the Tormek as a hobby.  Meaning (in my humble opinion) not a tool for saving money.

When I first got it I mounted the diamond dresser and lowered it bit by bit.  Then I hand rotated the wheel and found that one side was higher than the other so on turning only one side would scrape the tool.  The difference was probably not significant and exceedingly minor.  But I trued it anyway - probably more for fun.  Just do what is fun for you. 

The consequences of making a mistake and grading when it is not necessary is probably only a few dollars of wearing down the wheel and the diamond tool.  It won't pay for the gas needed to drive to my local woodworking store for my usual browsing on the weekends.  I don't mind buying a wheel every 3 years but I've only used 7mm in 3 years - I don't have enough tools and I don't use them enough to sharpen more often.

[Rob]

No offense taken Ionut....different views...thats what this forum is good at doing...uniting different approaches to give people choices.

[Ken S]

I found using a bandsaw frustrating until I studied with Mark Duginske.  Following his teachings, I now go through a quick setup routine each time I use the saw.  With the blade tracking properly, the guides and back bearings properly set, the saw is a joy to use.  Mark's good training has removed the hit and miss element for me.

As much as I would like to simplify using the Tormek for beginners, dressing the wheel is a necessary skill.  We all need to do it, if not at first, eventually.  Why not provide encouragement and guidance for the newbies to learn it right? Just like my bandsaw routine, it is part of good setup practice.  I would not want to be in the middle of sharpening a tool and have to true the wheel for the first time.

When I bought my first photographic enlarger many years ago, I debated about whether to spend the extra fifty dollars to get the stabilized voltage model.  In the end, I opted to get it.  It eliminated one possible problem.  Learning how to properly dress the grinding wheel at the start would eliminate nagging problems from an out of true wheel.

Ionut's marking is also called "witness marks", and used in machine trades to make sure an assembly is properly reassembled.  It seems like a good idea to me.  Probable gain and no downside risk.

Realizing that wheels wear down, I would be surprised if many of us actually need to replace one.  If a lot of work is done with high speed steel (drill bits, turning tools, planer/jointer blades), obtaining a SB wheel as a second wheel seems I wise plan.  (I have one.)

I like having different opinions on the forum.  Variety of thought makes the forum both more interesting and more educational.

Ken

[grepper]

Wow!  Clean machine Rob.  Did you make it take a bath before having it's picture taken?

Too bad you got black junk all over your wheel. 

BTW, how's that SB panning out for you?

[Rob]

SB is awesome dude. Really love it so far ( ask me after I've done planar knives though