What kind of kitchen knives should I buy?

[Rhino]

I have a good set of knives and a dishwasher set of knives that are pretty good too.  And I have knives in between.

So what is my point?  Buying knives are a lot of fun.  No need to stick to one philosophy.  Do both.  Cheaper (but not cheap) and use with the dishwasher.  Expensive and hand wash.  You can own multiple knives for the same purpose.  If you own a Tormek, chances are you are not going to buy one set of knives and never buy again to hand them down to your children.  You like knives.  You like sharpening.  Why stop with one set?  Continue to get more and more.  Have fun.

[Ken S]

Rhino,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.  I am as likely to collect things as the next person.  ( I admit to having sixteen templates for my Omnijig, ten more than Porter Cable made for it.  That's another story.)

However,  for kitchen knives, I prefer to go simple.  My wooden knife block holds eight knives.  In addition to those, I have a chinese cleaver which I like for vegetables.  For my needs, they are sufficient.  I used them almost every day in meal preparation.  They happen to be Henckel knives, although any good knife would be a good substitute.

I can see the possible benefit of having a couple less expensive knives for camping trips.

My kitchen is small enough that I do not have room for knives beyond those I actually use.  I am also not a knife collector.  Knife collectors might enjoy having more knives to select from in their kitchens.

I have never run any of my knives through a dishwasher, nor would I.   My young grandchildren live with me.  The life example  I want to leave them is to use tools skillfully and carefully.  That includes properly maintaining them.

I enjoy sharpening.  My woodshop provides me with plenty of edges to maintain.

Ken

[Rob]

I've been tormekking my run of the mill knives for years....it's fine.  However, I recently purchased the expensive Japanese "global" knives and they are scarily sharp out the box which is in itself a rare mark of quality. The steel is without question more durable and holds an edge for about five times as long as a regular knife assuming no chronic abuse.

I tormek these new guys about once a month maybe six weeks and they're quite stunning.  One thing I notice is that a steel won't give them the edge I like, only the tormek manages that whereas a steel can bring back my cheaper knives if I can't be bothered to set the Tormek up just for one dulled knife.  So for ease and simple the cheapys work but your cost will be time spent sharpening.  The better ones last longer between sharpens but you pay handsomely for that privelidge (in my case £200 for five knives)

Like all things in life, quality comes at a price.....it's all about choice

[tb444]

A bit late, but +1 to Forschners. They are one of the best bang for buck knives around.
If you want to step up from them JCK Carbonexts are great knives as well but being semi stainless take a little extra care.
Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).
Nicest knives i've used are made by some of the custom makers i've been fortunate to have experience with (Devin Thomas and Will Catcheside are two that spring to mind instantly)

[Justin]

Any steps up from there and i'd worry putting them to the tormek, (no disrepect to the tormek, just greater respect to the knife).

Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?

[Herman Trivilino]

Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?

The Tormek is going to remove metal faster. If you remove too much metal off the wrong surface you could ruin a tool. If you have experience and know what you're doing the Tormek will do it faster and better than hand grinding.

For example, I wouldn't try to sharpen a pair of expensive hair dresser's scissors. With the Tormek or by any method. I just don't have the expertise to do that with a pair of $200 scissors.

If I had a custom made $1000 knife I would be very careful about sharpening it. I have enough experience that I would feel comfortable sharpening it on a Tormek, but I would be very careful.

I wouldn't trust a newbie to do it, though.

[Black Mamba]

Are you saying you would only use traditional water stones on more expensive knives? What is it that the Tormek would or wouldn't do to the knives?

The Tormek is going to remove metal faster. If you remove too much metal off the wrong surface you could ruin a tool. If you have experience and know what you're doing the Tormek will do it faster and better than hand grinding.

For example, I wouldn't try to sharpen a pair of expensive hair dresser's scissors. With the Tormek or by any method. I just don't have the expertise to do that with a pair of $200 scissors.

If I had a custom made $1000 knife I would be very careful about sharpening it. I have enough experience that I would feel comfortable sharpening it on a Tormek, but I would be very careful.

I wouldn't trust a newbie to do it, though.

Funny you should mention sharpening salon scissors. Doing just that is the main thrust of my business. You're absolutely correct....the Tormek is woefully inadequate for that job. I rely on only one instrument for that critical job. It is designed and manufactured by the Rapid Edge Co. It is sold, along with and including a mandatory factory training program, for the princely sum of $20,000. Sharpening scissors costing in excess of $1,000 is not uncommon....my personal record is a pair that cost about $3,500. I've attended a number of industry shows where vendors will claim their equipment can equal the effectiveness of the Rapid Edge system for a lot less money. I'm yet to see any that make me believe that. In fact, individuals using the equipment I use, usually sweep the major competitions for such sharpening. Interestingly, my Rapid Edge machine is not suitable, at all, for sharpening knives. For that, I rely on my trusty Tormek. I'm not as good as I want to be with the knives, but I'm working hard to get there.

[Ken S]

I've been tormekking my run of the mill knives for years....it's fine.  However, I recently purchased the expensive Japanese "global" knives and they are scarily sharp out the box which is in itself a rare mark of quality. The steel is without question more durable and holds an edge for about five times as long as a regular knife assuming no chronic abuse.

I tormek these new guys about once a month maybe six weeks and they're quite stunning.  One thing I notice is that a steel won't give them the edge I like, only the tormek manages that whereas a steel can bring back my cheaper knives if I can't be bothered to set the Tormek up just for one dulled knife.  So for ease and simple the cheapys work but your cost will be time spent sharpening.  The better ones last longer between sharpens but you pay handsomely for that privelidge (in my case £200 for five knives)

Like all things in life, quality comes at a price.....it's all about choice

Interesting point.  I've never owned any Japanese knives.  Japanese chisels, also legendary, are supposed to only be sharpened on using waterstones.  The use of laminated steel is a different process from contemporary western toolmaking.

Herman makes some good points.  With the exception of the moderator, Jeff, Herman is probably the most experienced regular poster on the forum.  I would guess the vast majority of the knives of the forum members fall into the "ordinary" category, which would more garden variety to knives like Henckels.  In experienced hands, the Tormek knife jig seems very adequate for ordinary work.

Tying in Black Mamba's post, I also believe the scissors jig is very adequate for ordinary work.   While every household has scissors, very few have expensive salon scissors.  Sharpening these to professional standards is asking a lot from a jig costing less than a hundred dollars, just as sharpening a custom knife may be above and beyond the call of duty for a thirty eight dollar knife jig.

Rapid Edge is wise enough to require their training program in the cost of the equipment.  In fairness to the Tormek, for twenty thousand dollars, the Tormek product would be much improved, also.

I believe the Tormek and its accessories are a fair exchange of value for cost.  With some practice, the drill bit jig does a very nice job with a lot of versatility.  It allows an amateur with very little (or no) machine shop experience to produce workmanlike results.  Even at a small fraction of the cost of the drill bit jig, the knife jig allows a beginner the opportunity to do very good basic knife sharpening with only a small learning curve.  I think that is remarkable.

Where I believe Tormek falls short is in the field of training.  There is more to knife sharpening that just making a keen edge.  Even with my home use only for eight knives, I had to reestablish the curve on my paring knife.  This also involved grinding down the bolster a bit.  Until I corrected the hollow spot, the knife would not cut correctly.  This is by no means advanced sharpening.  Ron Hock covers it well in his sharpening book.  I am unaware of any mention of it in the Tormek materials.

Ken

[Black Mamba]

In his post above, I believe Ken correctly gives the Tormek its just praise for being a very capable machine covering a wide range of applications. In fact, I'm sure I'll never personally exploit the machine to its fullest potential.

I routinely use the Tormek to sharpen household scissors. It does a very credible job. The criteria there, though, is no where close to the demands of working with professional salon scissors. It's simply a case of utilizing the best machine, and associated techniques, available for a given job. The Rapid Edge machine, and system, has its role. The Tormek, likewise, is important to my business.

I started offering the knife sharpening service because I was constantly being prodded to do so. I believe, with proper dedication, I'll be able to perform well in that arena. At this juncture, however, I'm inclined to limit myself to about 90 percent of the work I'm offered. Exotic knives...both in design and materials...are something I'm currently passing on. In fact, I may never pursue that segment of the market. The economics of the deal tend to dictate my position.

The financial return in messing with knives doesn't begin to approach that which I realize in my scissor business. For that reason alone, the knife issue will always be a secondary endeavor for me. Without the Tormek, though, I wouldn't be into sharpening knives at all.

Tom

[Justin]

I don't think comparing Tormek with X brands can really be discussed in regards to salon (convex) scissors, due to Tormek not making such a jig.

I think the 20k price tag associated with Rapid Edge is bonkers. I also think the price tags on Truhone and the Catra equipment is too high.  I say this in light of the fact that there are many people that would say the equipment and training would be worthless if you really cared about the finished edge on the top quality scissors. Also 20k vs the relatively low cost of proper water stones which many would also claim to be the only proper way to sharpen these tools.

Having said that there is always the balance between speed, quality and ease. I mean alot these industrial/professional machines are designed to turn out good (enough) edges, fast. Do they provide the best edge or the best solution to a given problem. The Tormek seems to come somewhere in the middle.

Apologies for going way off topic..

[Black Mamba]

I don't think comparing Tormek with X brands can really be discussed in regards to salon (convex) scissors, due to Tormek not making such a jig.

I think the 20k price tag associated with Rapid Edge is bonkers. I also think the price tags on Truhone and the Catra equipment is too high.  I say this in light of the fact that there are many people that would say the equipment and training would be worthless if you really cared about the finished edge on the top quality scissors. Also 20k vs the relatively low cost of proper water stones which many would also claim to be the only proper way to sharpen these tools.

Having said that there is always the balance between speed, quality and ease. I mean alot these industrial/professional machines are designed to turn out good (enough) edges, fast. Do they provide the best edge or the best solution to a given problem. The Tormek seems to come somewhere in the middle.

Apologies for going way off topic..

[Black Mamba]

Relative to the quote above by Justin.....

I don't have a problem with you going off topic, as you say. Personally, though, I don't think you have a clue about the sharpening of salon scissors. I've been in this specialized industry for a number of years and I've never heard such misinformed crap coming from anyone before.

Tom

[Justin]

Relative to the quote above by Justin.....
I've never heard such misinformed crap coming from anyone before.

I apologise for angering you, but instead of saying that, why don't you educate me? I'm not sure what i said that was so wrong but Salon-scissor sharpening appears to be a real area of contention, with tons of hype and conflicting information. All to common in industries reliant on the satisfaction of peoples ego's and vanity.

Most sharpening related info/vids i see online seem to be a guy running tools over belt/dry wheel bench sanders with sparks all over the place, so i'm quite confident there are alot of people, not only misinformed themselves but also actively misinforming others.

Out of interest, what is the ABSOLUTE best method of sharpening these super expensive scissors, time/money not restricting?

I was talking to the OP about going off topic, but anyway...

[Black Mamba]

Justin....

In all fairness to you, it is very easy to fall prey to misinformation relative to all aspects of sharpening....including, but not limited to, salon scissors. When I elected to enter the industry I'm a part of, I expended a great deal of time and effort going through all the chaff and BS that exists out there. I took a hard look at each and every program and process available. I was truly on a mission to give myself the very best chance of being successful.

After exhaustive research, it became apparent to me that incorporating some element of machinery was the only way to go....and not just for the speed of operation, but to ensure the prospect of repeatability, which is paramount to success. Having come to these conclusions, isolating the best equipment available became chore #1.

I looked at them all. Talked to folks who were using them. Exposed myself to every option I could. I ultimately elected to go with the Rapid Edge equipment and system. Let me say loud and clear....I didn't spend that $20,000 lightly. But their machine is clearly superior to ANY other piece of equipment out there...for a multitude of reasons. Equally important, Rapid Edge insists that their buyers attend a stringent one-on-one training period with the designer and builder of the machine. I was somewhat dismayed that some other companies wanted to sell me their machine and were graciously willing to send me a DVD so I'd know how to operate it. Couldn't believe that.

Whats the absolute best way to correctly sharpen salon scissors? I'll let the record speak for itself. There are a number of competitions held, regionally and nationally, to determine just that. While speed and other considerations are judged, it's the quality of the blade sharpening that determines who wins these affairs. Almost invariably, a practitioner using the Rapid Edge machine and system comes out on top....and in many cases they sweep all 4 top spots.

I appreciate that you have an open mind relative to all this. I hope that my experiences have shed some light on this issue for you. Is my way the only way? Certainly not. But, believe me, I stay right on top of my industry and if I ever found a better way to do things, I'd be all over it.

Good luck,

Tom

[Ken S]

Well stated, Tom.  Your informative post is appreciated. 

One of the joys of this kind of forum is that we come from many different backgrounds and skill sets.  One of my regrets with this forum is that some of the real veteran users, like Ionut, are no longer posting.  I don't believe Ionut ever sharpened salon scissors, but he is passionate about woodwork, and really pushed the limits of the Tormek for woodworking tools.  He is very innovative and I miss his posts.

Your salon sharpening experience widens our horizons. That's how we grow.

Keep posting, all of you.

Ken